Author Topic: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers  (Read 157255 times)

Offline Nebula

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #160 on: November 08, 2006, 08:35:34 PM »
Raiders need a place to dock and refuel.
Canon is what people argue exists on ships that don't exist.

Offline Phaser

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #161 on: November 08, 2006, 09:19:55 PM »
Quote from: Weasel
Shades of Occam's razor...
It would seem that Nebula's hypothesis is the most logical one.
Agreed.
Quote from: Master Thief
Also, i can't help but wonder how that virus can affect Cylons when there was no Cylons around during the time of the 13 Tribes for it to be engineered against. I could understand a computer virus to an extent, but a biological virus which would affect only Cylons?[/color]
Good question.  I was wondering this myself.

Offline Shinzon

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #162 on: November 08, 2006, 09:50:52 PM »
Quote from: Nebula
Raiders need a place to dock and refuel.


but generally, they're the ones that do the reconaissance missions. Then they send the basestars... not that i dont like the theory of the smaller basestars, because apparently galactica still managed to destroy one during the rescue mission of New Caprica. At least I think that's how it went... Galactica destroyed one, then pegasus destroyed another one (in a few shots, might i add), then the pegasus took out 2 more when it collided...

which reminds me, just the sheer size of the pegasus' flight pod (i believe it was that, IIRC) which collided into the last basestar was practically half its size or more... so ya, the basestars got smaller, although i like the huge ones  better IMO.

Offline Shinzon

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #163 on: November 11, 2006, 09:44:55 PM »
wow this was another good episode, at least, there was no tigh :P

btw, i never saw that picture of adama and tigh on the valkyrie, so it has to be another episode.

Offline RCgothic

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #164 on: November 12, 2006, 05:38:40 AM »
The valkrie is in Hero.  I'll see A Measure of Salvation on monday

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #165 on: November 12, 2006, 06:45:25 AM »
what a fucking cunt Helo is.

Offline MickJo

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #166 on: November 12, 2006, 07:59:07 AM »
He is, but if they suceeded that would be the end of the show, or it'll become ER.

Offline RCgothic

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #167 on: November 12, 2006, 08:02:10 AM »
"I've been thinking about what we talked about before. It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving."
-Adama to Starbuck.


Why does Humanity deserve to survive, if we are willing to commit genocide, just to save our own skins?

The germans in WWII committed Genocide against the jews. The responce was not Genocide against the germans.
The American Settlers committed Genoicde against the natives. I don't see anyone seriously suggesting that the few natives who are left commit genocide against the americans in order to preserve their race...

What the Cylons did was wrong. That doesn't make exterminating them right.

Offline Shinzon

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #168 on: November 12, 2006, 01:10:08 PM »
the cylons arent even human, there walking programs

is it genocide to reformat a computer?

i hate helo.

Offline MLeo

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #169 on: November 12, 2006, 01:15:56 PM »
Quote from: Shinzon
the cylons arent even human, there walking programs

is it genocide to reformat a computer?

i hate helo.

Computer programs don't evolve unless programmed to, Cylons weren't programmed to do that and they did, ergo, they are life.
Cylons weren't programmed to turn on their creators, ergo, they are life.

Just 2 examples.
I still can't read peoples minds, nor can I read peoples computers, even worse, I can't combine the two to read what is going wrong with your BC install...

"It was filed under 'B' for blackmail." - Morse, Inspector Morse - The dead of Jericho.

Weasel

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #170 on: November 12, 2006, 05:52:48 PM »
Quote from: RCgothic
"I've been thinking about what we talked about before. It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving."
-Adama to Starbuck.


Why does Humanity deserve to survive, if we are willing to commit genocide, just to save our own skins?

The germans in WWII committed Genocide against the jews. The responce was not Genocide against the germans.
The American Settlers committed Genoicde against the natives. I don't see anyone seriously suggesting that the few natives who are left commit genocide against the americans in order to preserve their race...

What the Cylons did was wrong. That doesn't make exterminating them right.


You are painting with a VERY wide brush, and I have a problem with some of the examples you gave.

The Nazi's attempted to exterminate the Jews- who were not a threat to the Nazis. The Jews never had the opportunity to commit genocide against the Nazis, or perhaps they would have. It's not like the people were so different from one another, that their religion would have prevented the Jews from commiting acts of murder against the Nazi's if given the choice.
And it should be noted that the Nazi survivors of the war, and their offspring in years since, HAVE suffered immensely. Some might even say that these people suffered as much as the Jews themselves had, and they were'nt all guilty of war crimes, or any other crime. They allied themselves with the wrong side, or were nothing more than the children and relatives of Nazi party members.

What's more, the Jews couldn't target the German people, or the French, or the Russians, or any of the various people that would have exterminated the Jew's- because the Jews were also German, French, Russian, etc.

As to the American settlers; Not all of them were hostile, or murderous towards the Native people- there were many cases of American settlers living in harmony with the American Indians.

In it's desire to claim the continent, and it's resources- the government waged genocidal war against the native Americans. In particular it was against the very large, powerful, and dangerous, hostile Indian tribes in the "wild" West. Notably, these were the Apache, Commanche, and Sioux tribes- and they had little compunction about killing the settlers ( women, children, et all. ) as well.
These days, our nation honors these people, and have made some gesture of reparations to those that were treated wrongfully. My own father-in law works on a reservation in Arizona that's as large as several European nations that I have visited.

There was no nation willing, or able, to save the American Indians, from the US government. No one could have stopped our government if we were truely bent on their destruction. Obviously, they knew it was wrong to completely exterminate those proud people.
So I'm not sure you can say that we really committed genocide against the Indians. If that was really the case, there probably would not be any Indians, reservations, casinos, place-names, or holidays such as Thanksgiving- when we honor the memory of the Native Americans that saved the European settlers from starvation.

My own family name harkons back to the original thirteen colonies. I know, and have been taught- that I owe those native people a debt of gratitude. I know, and am proud of the fact- that I too am a descendant of native American heritage. The blood in my veins is mixed with that of the Seneca.  

Anyway, I'm not saying that genocide is ever justified... but if I was ever the victim of a genocidal campaign, I might not have a problem wiping out enough of the enemy to prevent that genocidal campaign from continuing.
I wonder if this could be compared to our desire to erradicate certain biological species that carry diseases dangerous to no one but Humanity- For instance, what about the mosquito? Is it wrong to destroy ALL mosquitoes, if they could kill us all with malaria? What about the screw worm, the bot fly, and the flea?
Is it reasonable to spare the Cylons merely because they are sentient, but   choose to endure plague-ridden vermin, because it's wrong to erradicate a life form?  

Seems to me, reformatting the toasters en masse is a matter of survival at this point, and I've got to do what I must in order to survive.
If they can't live with us, then we'll have to ensure they are no longer a threat to us- and a dead enemy is not going to hurt my children in this existence.

Offline Shinzon

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #171 on: November 12, 2006, 09:44:26 PM »
excellent points weasel.

Offline Phaser

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #172 on: November 13, 2006, 10:13:33 PM »
I agree with everything you said, Weasel, except for two statements.
Quote from: Weasel
And it should be noted that the Nazi survivors of the war, and their offspring in years since, HAVE suffered immensely. Some might even say that these people suffered as much as the Jews themselves had, and they were'nt all guilty of war crimes, or any other crime. They allied themselves with the wrong side, or were nothing more than the children and relatives of Nazi party members.
Yes, the Nazis suffered after the war, as well they should.  However, the second sentence in that quote is way over the top.  You seem to be an extremely intelligent person, so I'm hoping you'll realize upon re-reading that second sentence how erroneous (and almost offensive) it is without my having to explain it.  I can elaborate further if you like, though.

Quote from: Weasel
I wonder if this could be compared to our desire to erradicate certain biological species that carry diseases dangerous to no one but Humanity- For instance, what about the mosquito? Is it wrong to destroy ALL mosquitoes, if they could kill us all with malaria? What about the screw worm, the bot fly, and the flea?
Is it reasonable to spare the Cylons merely because they are sentient, but   choose to endure plague-ridden vermin, because it's wrong to erradicate a life form?  

Seems to me, reformatting the toasters en masse is a matter of survival at this point, and I've got to do what I must in order to survive.
If they can't live with us, then we'll have to ensure they are no longer a threat to us- and a dead enemy is not going to hurt my children in this existence.
I don't think the mosquito or any species on this planet other than humans can be properly used as an example in this discussion, since the extermination of a species such as the mosquito would have repercussions throughout the world's ecosystems (Extermination of human beings, on the other hand, would only serve to improve the ecosystems of Earth.  Not that I'd ever advocate the extermination of the human race.  I'm just saying you can't make that sort of comparison).  Then there's the immune system and natural selection.  Point being, diseases such as these do wipe out good chunks of our population, but they aren't serious threats to the survival of the human race (at least, they aren't any longer).  Hence, they don't really compare to the threat posed by a genocidal race of toasters-turned-people.

Anyway, back to BSG: I think this is an excellent moral dilemma.  Attacking them and wiping them out is morally reprehensible and brings about the moral implications briefly discussed in the episode.  But not attacking them keeps the survival of humanity in question.  And therein lies the fundamental issue--is humanity doomed if they don't wipe out the Cylons?

The Cylons seem to have the exact same psyche as humans do, so giving the Cylons an ultimatum--"Leave us alone forever or we will wipe you out with this disease"--would not ensure humanity's survival.  Instead, it may worsen their chances because then the Cylons would know we've harnessed the disease as a weapon, and they may respond by looking for a cure or attacking us with a biological weapon.  It's like playing chess with yourself!

These writers are brilliant.

Weasel

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #173 on: November 14, 2006, 12:48:52 AM »
I was just stating my own opinion, I wasn't really expecting everyone else to subscribe to my particular point of view.

If you were offended that I can sympathize with some minor non-functionaries of the Nazi party, or their families, I don't know what to tell you.... I don't believe that every member of the German war machine were gassing the Jews, or were even supportive of those who were.
It is known that the "Final Solution" was not easy for many of the leadership to agree with, and some of those men actively resisted against it. They later came to realize that Hitler had become dangerous and irrational, and even attempted to kill him.

Just so there is no doubt amongst the members of Fellowship;
In no way do I support the beliefs and goals of the Nazi party. They were evil and an abomination against Humanity as a whole, and I freely aknowledge these statements as fact.

Offline Tuskin38

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #174 on: November 14, 2006, 05:57:16 AM »
Noticing what the Doctor gave for the Scientific name of the Virus, isn't it the Plague? What else was transmitted by Rodents?

Weasel

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Offline MLeo

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #176 on: November 14, 2006, 12:02:56 PM »
Quote from: Kori Barnes
What else was transmitted by Rodents?

Short answer, a lot.:P
I still can't read peoples minds, nor can I read peoples computers, even worse, I can't combine the two to read what is going wrong with your BC install...

"It was filed under 'B' for blackmail." - Morse, Inspector Morse - The dead of Jericho.

Offline MickJo

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #177 on: November 14, 2006, 12:04:29 PM »
Did anyone else notice that raptors now have missles, lots of them. Looks like someone realised that now there's no Pegasus, and Galactica's barely holding together they arn't infallible.

Weasel

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #178 on: November 14, 2006, 01:17:55 PM »
Probably could've made a pretty big difference in previous episodes if they'd loaded missiles on the Raptors. The use of decoys from the Raptors could've been useful as well.

These writers are so talented with utilizing acting, drama, and charcter development- which is great- but it would be nice if they could hire a couple other people to flesh out the technical and tactical aspects, as well.

Unlike Trek, this definately IS a story about a military campaign, and more attention could be payed to technical details, and consistancy.

Offline Shinzon

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RE: BSG, Caprica, Blood and Chrome series topic discussion - May Contain Spoilers
« Reply #179 on: November 14, 2006, 06:36:39 PM »
true. They are fighting for survival. There should be more concentration on the military aspect, although the moral dilemmas are very interesting, to say the least.