Bridge Commander Central
Recreational Forums => Trek Discussion => Ships & Tech Talk => Topic started by: Psyco Diver on January 05, 2010, 06:05:04 PM
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I've been thinking about the Consititution class lately, the TOS version and the TMP version and I've got to wondering, in respects to the Miranda, Oberth, and Excelsior serving over 80+ years. The Consititution didn't get a very long run as it seems, and the refit didn't last much longer either, I figured the refit brought it up to Miranda specs, which I would figure would last her well into the Dominion war (I would have loved to see Connies fight) That brings another point, the standard connie only ran for what 10-20 years before the ships were completely rebuilt. So I've been wondering is, was the TOS Connie the ultimate in Pre TOS tech, and during TOS they were already planning on using the new tech to build the new Miranda and Excelsior class, and then the Connies were upgraded with the new tech later?
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The TMP Refit was seen completely smashed up at Wolf 359. And technology is like that. You develop something new then something much cooler suddenly appears so you shoot round and starting fiddling with that, leaving the original tech forgotten.
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It just makes me wonder why we don't see any Connie refits in TNG or DS9, they still had all the models, and converting them to CGI would been as easy as the Excelsior and Miranda models. Just seeing it on screen would have been cool, but it dishing some punishment out on some Dominion or being served as canon fodder would have been awesome to see on screen
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It just makes me wonder why we don't see any Connie refits in TNG or DS9, they still had all the models, and converting them to CGI would been as easy as the Excelsior and Miranda models. Just seeing it on screen would have been cool, but it dishing some punishment out on some Dominion or being served as canon fodder would have been awesome to see on screen
The Constitution would be easier to refit than the Miranda I think. But her design makes her easy to take apart. The Nacelle pylons, and the section connecting the Primary and Secondary hulls would be easy targets for the Jem'Hadar to start picking her piece by piece.
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I don't think ease was a factor, money was.
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I don't think ease was a factor, money was.
Yea, the resources available at the start of the Dominion War were poured into the Galaxy, Miranda, and Excelsior classes for the most part. Older ships like the Constitution were just so far behind on technology that Starfleet just did not bother the upgrades for her. Besides, I believe that most of the Constitution classes remaining were in too small numbers to even make a sizable re-class, and refitting fleet.
Its a damn shame too. Her design was proven and solid except for the Nacelle pylons, and Primary-secondary connector section. So much potential.
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such a shame, I would think thier more inclined to do the Consitution since its a much more famous ship except for Galaxy class
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I think it is also to diffrenciate TOS/TMP from TNG. If you have noticed, there aren't that many galaxy classes in DS9 and VOY either...
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I think it is also to diffrenciate TOS/TMP from TNG. If you have noticed, there aren't that many galaxy classes in DS9 and VOY either...
And those we saw were usually blown up by the end of the episode (i.e. Odyssey).
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such a shame, I would think thier more inclined to do the Consitution since its a much more famous ship except for Galaxy class
Yeah but Galaxy had latest tech, providing 360 deegree phaser coverage and could fire torpedo barrage with it's launchers, whatsmore Galaxy was much bigger and had much less design flaws / weak spots, could be converted to troop transport / carrier easily due to it's size and finally had stronger hull, shields, warp drive, Investing money into almost 100 years old ships would be a waste of funds so they put all these for fiting simplier ships like Miranda, Excelsior and newer ships like Galaxy.
I agree with Rifle, Connie would be just another target practice for Jems, you see those ships were not designed to withstand suicide runs as noone performed it back in TMP era, neither Klingons nor Romulans. Constitution's neck is probably the weakest spot in whole ship, it's tall and thin thus easy to break. We have seen multiple Miranda's and Excel's that got ripping hit through saucer section with just few blasts, now imagine you've put rather expensive tech and resources to that ship and it gets destroyed in very first battle.
As for Wolf 359, I always thought it is just an easter egg to put there ST3 destroyed Enterprise model or simply, it was there because it was good looking wreckage and it would be pointless to make new wreckage for 5 seconds scene so they reused some props ;) I think even if they had Constitution class as a training vessel they wouldn't fit it with up to date weapons (see Enterprise shuttle wchich isn't even equipped with engines cuz it's purpose is landing training) and so they wouldn't sent crew made of red shirts for suicide mission in 100 years old ship that most likely will fall apart after one shot ;)
If we're talking about decomissioning Constitution too early then what should we say about Ambassador line hm ?
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Well the Ambassador was discussed, I still believe she was built with Pre TNG tech, the ship looks more like a TNG era ship than a TMP, thus more than capable of being fully refitted with stronger phasers, engines, and shields
back to the subject though, they wasted the tech on older ships like the TMP era ships anyways, but I get the point probably by the end of the end of the TMP era, or pre TNG they were probably either decommsioned, made into training ships, pure research ships, transport/cargo, and maybe patrol ships in the inner sect of the Federation territory
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they wasted it on Mirandas and Centaurs, but if I recall right, Excelsior class was bit more useable?
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during DS9 time period they would be useless as whole new line of ships came in : frigates/escorts - Steamrunner, Sabre ; destroyers - Defiant, Norway ; light cruisers - Intrepid ; heavy cruisers - Nebula/Akira ; Dreadnoughts/ formerly deep space exploration cruisers - Galaxy/Venture so I guess all those TMP ships that had less delicate hull design (Miranda is flat, Excelsior is thick in about every part of it) were revived and taken into active duty.
We could also presume Constitution class was somehow similiar in purpose to Galaxy class, now look how much of these were present in DS9 7-9 maybe 11 at max, if we take ex-astris-scientia ship list then there were only 17 Connies back then, many of them were destroyed or decomissioned (Ent destroyed, Yorktownt recomissioned to Ent-A and then decomissioned, there are unconfirmed data about Eagle being destroyed, it's unknown if SF ever rebuilt Intrepid, Exeter or Constellation which narrows the number down to 12 ships decomissioned/ dismantelled while we've seen at least 50 Mirandas and Excelsiors during DS9
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Remember, the Enterprise was built in the 2240s, since that's when cage was supposed to have taken place. assuming that the whole class was built around the same time, that means that, refit or no, the basic spaceframe on some of them, like the Enterprise-A, was something like 60 years old by ST-VI, while the Mirandas and Excelsiors were only in their 30s tops, and were built with much newer technology in mind. It would probably have been more economical to put the newer Excels and Mirandas through a SLEP refit and scrap the aging Connies by the early 2300s.
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... while the Mirandas and Excelsiors were only in their 30s tops...
Actually I belive the Excelsior would be no more than 5-6 years since the prototype was first seen in ST:II, making it even more beliveable that it would still be in service in the late 2300.
Also there are more things that favour the Miranda and Excelcior classes: While the Miranda is basically just a saucer and very small, it would be quite easy to "rip" the inside out and rebuild/upgrade it deck by deck. This would make it an execelent choice for several re-fits since the only thing sticking out of the ship would be the nacells and pylons, wich we have seen are easily replaced.
The Excelsior is the direct opposite. A big fat lady, giving RnD plenty of room to work with for re-fitting the inside. She has no real thin spots (again except the pylons and nacells), making fairly easy to re-arrange compartments for newer systems and plenty of space for tech larger than the original designs.
The Connie on the other hand is a fairly thin ship with a thin neck and not exactly a lot of space for expansion. Also taking into consideration that the shuttlebay took up about 1/5'th (at least) of the secondary hull, I think that the re-fit we saw in ST:I is most likely one of the last major re-fits the Connie went throug before retirement.
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since the prototype was first seen in ST:II
that's ST III :P
and yeah there are evidence pointing that Miranda was also one of the newest designs in Starfleet which would put Constitution as an old ship compared to both Miranda and Excelsior
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that's ST III :P
I belive you're right...
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i agree with most of the points on the connie, including the thin spots that could be easily damaged. compiling everything we've learned on the connie and connie refit: conceived in the late thirties, laid down between 40-45, beat to death in the fifties and sixties, refit and reissued in the seventies, and not retired till the ninties (when they worked all the kinks out of the excell). the connies have, more or less, 50 years of service in.
the ent herself was in service basically from 40-85 1 mission under Bob April, 2+1 year under Chris Pike (with refit), 2 under Kirk before promotion, ALSO with refit, then 1 more, then the destruction at the end of SFS.
I think the Amby's were meant to be a one-shot ship, and the only loose models they had for next G besides Galaxy were Excells (which didn't go into service officially till 90 or so)
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I think the Ambie was just an early form of Galaxy class that just got pushed back newer technology. The Ambie had 6 small phaser arrays on the saucer while the Galaxy had 2 huge ones and there was another thread somewhere about phaser arrays saying that the more components in an array there are, the more stronger the phaser beam itself was. Considering the amount off effort Starfleet put into the Galaxy, the Ambassador would've just been left alone.
Or perhaps it followed a story similar to DJ's Incom class. It simply wasn't that much in demand.
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I still believe the ambies were a test bed, there was nothing like it before that, but after her every ship looks simliar to her, look at her necelles and also shes the first known ship to use phaser arrays insteal of ball turrets. I think she was built to iron out any kinks in the designs and used for practical data for changes to the Galaxy class that was still in the blue print stage. Unfortantly starfleet probably didn't see a use for them one the Nebulas and Galaxys started being built thus they were discontinued after what ?10-15? were built
I'm sure they could have reenforced the neck and the pylons of the Connie, maybe extended the secondary hull some. But like I said before, if any were still in service, they were probably regulated to non dangerous, easy jobs, probably only having a couple old phaser banks and no torpedos, except for maybe training. Its a shame they seemed to have a shorter service life than the other TMP ships, since the other TMP ships show up several times in TNG and DS9 episodes, heck even the last episode of VOY I remember faintly a excelsior in that fleet
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The thing is the Excelsior class was brought online 40 years after the first Connie had been launched. The Excelsior was basically the next generation of multi mission ship and could do everything the Connie could if not better. So why waste time and resources keeping a small class of starships updated and in service when numerous Excelsior and Miranda hulls had been commisioned and formed the bulk of the fleet.
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The thing is the Excelsior class was brought online 40 years after the first Connie had been launched. The Excelsior was basically the next generation of multi mission ship and could do everything the Connie could if not better. So why waste time and resources keeping a small class of starships updated and in service when numerous Excelsior and Miranda hulls had been commisioned and formed the bulk of the fleet.
Actually i think there were fairly few Excelsiors by the time the connie was retired, but with peace with the Klingons just around the corner Starfleet would have changed focus from combat heavy ships to more science/exploration oriented ships, like the Oberth and Miranda, building only few heavy ships.
Just look at the TNG era: How many ships have we seen total of the Galaxy Class in TNG and DS9 (pre Dom War)? The Galaxy Prototype (we never seen it, but it must have been there right?), The Enterprise, The Oddyse, The Yamato and the Venture... It was not until the Dominion Wars we saw more combat able ships, suchs as Galaxies, Akiras and the Defiant of cause.
Personally i think the it had not been until around the lost era (ENT C era) that Excelsiors went into mass production, because by then the design would have been refined and perfected enough to support the resources put in to production of thoose ships.
That would also explain why there are so many Mirandas around, because they, and the constallation class, would have made up the bulk of the fleet between TS:V and TNG: Cheap to build, Easy to modify, and only a small crew is required.
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during DS9 time period they would be useless as whole new line of ships came in : frigates/escorts - Steamrunner, Sabre ; destroyers - Defiant, Norway ; light cruisers - Intrepid ; heavy cruisers - Nebula/Akira ; Dreadnoughts/ formerly deep space exploration cruisers - Galaxy/Venture
i am just writing to point something out i would like to know where this bit of info was taken from because the nebula was not a heavy cruiser she was a light dreadnought support ship because the nebula is in basic terms a galaxy compacted up with a modular system for different jobs now before someone cries it was stated in a star trek novel during the dominion wars, its was even stated that an andorian admiral had one as a flagship of a fleet.
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as people can see as well my avatar picture is of a connie refit using post nemesis tech so maybe after the war the federation had to replace many destroyed ships so they brought out mothball ships and then spent the time outfitting them to replace the gaps left over untill they rebuild the proper ships
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The story behind the Excalibur class is that it's just a modification of the design, not a refit of the Constitution class.
Also:
it was stated in a star trek novel during the dominion wars, its was even stated that an andorian admiral had one as a flagship of a fleet.
Sorry but novels mean nothing in canon, take Shatners "The Return" where Kirk comes back and destroys the Borg, not canon.
I'd say a Nebula is a multi-mission modular cruiser, as it can be fitted with combat or sensor modules (And possibly others, perhaps a shuttlebay module, to hold a number of fighters?)
In my opinion, the Constitution class was too small a class to be continuously refitted. But your remark about Starfleet being low on ships and pulling others out of mothballs doesn't seem TOO far-fetched.
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In my opinion, the Constitution class was too small a class to be continuously refitted. But your remark about Starfleet being low on ships and pulling others out of mothballs doesn't seem TOO far-fetched.
That I can believe, even in the start of of WWII, America brought a bunch of WWI and pre WWI ships out of moth balls and refitted them, and used them for shor bambardments and fleet escorts in secured territory where the threat level was low. The USS Texas comes to mind on this, a old WWI Battleship, but it was so slow it was said it couldn't even keep up with the liberty ships, it was refited with AA guns and used for harbor defense and shore landings. Its possible, esspecially with the losses the federation took to their main battle fleets in the begining of the war, especially when some of the shipyards were destoryed. I can see them running planet to planet on the other side of the federation territory doing what the Excellsiors, Mirandas, ect were doing pre war
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with the losses the federation took to their main battle fleets in the begining of the war, especially when some of the shipyards were destoryed. I can see them running planet to planet on the other side of the federation territory doing what the Excellsiors, Mirandas, ect were doing pre war
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true i mean what ambassador or civilian wouldn't like to ride on a connie during a short flight to a meeting or short transport mission i mean connies were the best ship the federation had and a living legend......well the few they had left anyway
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they've got a point. canon states that there were only thirteen OS style constitutions, and all but Enterprise herself were lost or destroyed. we know the fate of several of them (Connie Intrepid was destroyed with all hands by a Space Amoeba, Connie Defiant fell into the mirrorverse 100 years before TOS, etc). in-house fanon (by the trek actors) adds an enterprise M as a museum ship (which promptly falls to "the Kirk Effect", being the ONLY ship available, with James T nowhere in sight)
canon is technically dead for the original-vese and the Mirrorverse. all we have now is the JJverse if your being strict about canon.
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they've got a point. canon states that there were only thirteen OS style constitutions, and all but Enterprise herself were lost or destroyed. we know the fate of several of them (Connie Intrepid was destroyed with all hands by a Space Amoeba, Connie Defiant fell into the mirrorverse 100 years before TOS, etc). in-house fanon (by the trek actors) adds an enterprise M as a museum ship (which promptly falls to "the Kirk Effect", being the ONLY ship available, with James T nowhere in sight)
canon is technically dead for the original-vese and the Mirrorverse. all we have now is the JJverse if your being strict about canon.
yeah i agree i mean jj has opened up a large and interesting story maybe now the vulcans will change their stanse on weather time travel is logical uh hello narada just took out your home world and she was 100 and something years ahead of you!