Bridge Commander Central
Recreational Forums => Trek Discussion => Ships & Tech Talk => Topic started by: mckinneyc on June 21, 2008, 08:26:31 AM
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Why do you think we've saw so few Ambassador Class ships?
They're one of the biggest classes of Federation starships and when they were introduced no doubt the most advanced and biggest ships in the fleet yet we've only ever saw them four times.
I find it hard to believe that after being the Federation's top class for around 15-20 years they'd scrap them and not keep them up to date like the older Excelsior, Miranda and Constellation classes.
Also would it not stand to reason that being the size they are that Starfleet could refit them with technology developed during the design and construction of the Galaxy and Nebula classes?
What do you guys think?
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The Enterprise-C was an Ambassador class, if memory serves me right.
Maybe inherent design flaws?
Or maybe they did stop the production of Mirandas and Constellation classes and stop the Ambassador class production, but more Ambassador classes were lost?
And maybe the Mirandas and Constellation classes have been around for longer because they were either museum pieces, or training vessels?
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ive always been a fan of the Ambassador Class, and i do wish it got more "air time" in the shows...
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Thanks for your comments, I've been thinking that perhaps the Miranda and Excelsior class ships were quicker to build and easier to refit so therefore those designs were produced in greater numbers.
Then with the Cardassian Wars production of the more complex and larger Ambassador class was slowed or stopped altogther and smaller ships like the two older classes already mentioned and that of the New Orleans class were increased in order for Starfleet to bolster fleet numbers and by the time the Wars fizzled out the Galaxy and Nebula designs were being developed and built.
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Has anyone considered that maybe it was too old and not worth a redesign (Don't throw excelsior and miranda back at me, that's why i said "WORTH" a redesign)
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Design flaws? The ship looked solid! Why didnt we see alot of the Ambassador class? However, it did make way for the Galaxy class, idont think it performed as well as it looked I think. So starfleet used verry little. The USS Gandhi, Horatio, and Zhukov were mentioned in TNG and DS9, however, the USS Enterprise-C was seen. One Ambassador was seen at Wolf 359 from the DS9 episode Emissary. Another later in TNG.
But yea, by the mid- late 24th centure, the reason u didnt see alot of them I think was because the Ambassador was slow, and not verry well armed for a ship its class. I dont think starfleet found it plausable to Refit them. They are just under powered ships for what they should of been. The Ambassador class shows alot of promise. If i were starfleet, i would refit all and correct their problems. They would then make dangerouse battleshps. Small Brother of the Galaxy Class
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They would then make dangerouse battleshps. Small Brother of the Galaxy Class
Aka Nebula Class, with a weapons pod.
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.....always wondered why the federation would scrap such a ship in favor of the ever aging excelsior.....
maybe less construction costs? easiness of refit?
ds9 would have been a lot more eye-candy with the ambassadors instead of the excelsiors
....damn plot holes.... :(
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The Ambassador is the Little brother of the Galaxy man. The Nebula is the little sister.
anyway, i agree! DS9 would have been..... more interesting with Ambassadors especially with the Dominion War. But i think the Excelsior is a superior ship. Thats just me :D
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i think the canon basically goes that the ship was not as successful as the excelsior, and when the Galaxy was brought in to replace it the feeling was that the excelsior was still the better all rounder so the ambassadors took a back seat.
That's what came through to me through all the shows I've watched and books I've read
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i honestly think its because they only had 1 studio model of the Ambassador class starship. There were several Miranda and Excelsior class models constructed so they had more variety open to them at less cost.
"The next appearance of the Ambassador class was as the Zhukov in "Data's Day." As noted above, the model was noticeably changed after it was rehabbed to remove the battle damage it sported as the Enterprise-C. This It would later appear in "Redemption II" as the Excalibur, appearing both as a redressed model and recycled footage, and would make its final appearance in "Emissary" as the Yamaguchi." -Memory Alpha
http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ambassador_class
Also, it could be that the Ambassador class was too large to film with other ships. If you think back to TNG, the Enterprise-D dwarfed the Excelsior and Miranda, making it a lot easier to film the two ships side by side (as in the pictures below) That theory goes for the pre-CG episodes, I dont have an answer for the lack of them in the DW.
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When launched, the ship was most probibly difficult or expensive to build, so there were most probibly just a few built. Let's say 10 ships? Meanwhile they most probibly were able to build 2-3 Excelsiors to 1 Ambassador. So a few were most probibly built as flagships to impress friends and foe's. The Cardassian wars most probibly put the Ambassador's production on hietus since the Excelsior was quicker to build and more powerful (that is 3 Excelsiors to one Ambassador). The Excelsior was also long into production when the Ambassador was introduced so the ship yards were configured to build them. So after the war (2250's) the Nebula was introduced. At this time the Galaxy project was most probibly under way. So because of this they most probibly decided to still put the Ambassador on hietus to see how this new class of ship turned out. By the time the Galaxy was introduced, Starfleet most probibly realised that it was most probibly just as easy to build a Galaxy as it was to build an Ambassador since the Galaxy used much of the Nebula's parts (so the shipyards were configured to build the pieces, just like the Excelsior) but the parts of the Ambassador semmed to be unique to that ship. That's why we most probibly see a lot of Galaxy's in the dominion war because they had spare parts to build them quick.
Perhaps the Ambassador can be compared to the Sovereign (another ship we don't see much of) since they both appered at the time of war so it would be inefficient to build a new complicated ship when you can build loads of good, normal ships. Will the Sovvie continue production? I don't know. It's a fairly small ship (in comparason to the Ambassador, Galaxy and Nebula) so they may continue after the Dominion war, but if it follows the path of the Carassian War then it will most probibly be scrapped in favour of a new design. (Perhaps a Century Class ??? :D).
Just my interpritation of events.
But yea, by the mid- late 24th centure, the reason u didnt see alot of them I think was because the Ambassador was slow, and not verry well armed for a ship its class.
I don't think that the Ambassador was weak. It came under fire from 3 Romulan Warbirds and managed to destroy one. Again I think it was just Logical to retire them when they became badly damaged in favour of the Galaxy/Nebula class. But yes, it most probibly was slow, but they could most probibly add some engines pretty easily.
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Actually, the Enterprise C came under fire from 4 Romulan Warbirds and managed to destroy 2 of them after going back in time with Lt. Yar (Yesterday's Enterprise version). If one of them was named Enterprise, it must've been a success, because ever class with a ship named Enterprise is supposed to have the latest and greatest technology of the time. What i wonder is why we never saw any Ambassador Class ships in the Dominion War. If anything, the Ambassador Class would've been much stronger if refitted with the newest shields, armor, weapons, and warp drive assuming it was refitted like the Lakota.
Here are the Ambassador Class Ships that have appeared, been referenced, or assumed to exist.
-USS Ambassador NCC-10521 (assumed)
-USS Enterprise NCC-1701-C (canon)
-USS Excalibur NCC-26517 (canon)
-USS Exeter NCC-26513 (canon, but often referenced in non-canon as Ambassador Class)
-USS Yamaguchi NCC-26510 (canon)
-USS Ghandi NCC-26632 (canon)
-USS Valdemar NCC-26198 (canon)
-USS Adelphi NCC-26849 (see USS Exeter)
-USS Horatio NCC-10532 (canon)
-USS Zhukov NCC-26136 (canon)
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it honestly could just be that no Ambassador class ships were assigned to Admiral Ross's Fleet. We never actually saw the entire Star Fleet, just the fleet that the Defiant was assigned to. We never saw any other Defiant, Nova, Intrepid, or Sovereign class ships, but we know that more that 1 of them exist. If you think about it, during the war, other than the Akira and Steamrunners, the only NEW/Modern ships you saw were the USS Defiant, USS Bellephrone and briefly encountered the USS Valiant. Seeing how the Defiant and Voyager are... remarkable powerful, youd think that Starfleet would have produced many more of these "smaller" ships. The Enterprise-E rescued the Defiant from the Borg... so id imagine theyd have more Sovereign class ships during this war. Face it, we only saw a small side of the war. It was pretty much just the fleet assigned to DS9.
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Who's to say they didn't build more of the "Smaller" ships, i can count 3 Defiant class ships in this shot :)
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In reality, it was due to the fact that the Ambassador model was gigantic, and therefore not as easy to film as the Excelsior and Miranda models. (Note: The above poster was incorrect in stating that there were multiple Excelsior models. Every time you see an Excelsior class, refitted or otherwise, its the Excelsior built for Star Trek III, according to the documentaries on the TNG DVD sets. The same goes for the Miranda. It's always the Reliant with a fresh coat of paint.) We see them a lot in DS9 because the Dominion War battles were almost completely done with CGI.
In continuity, the Ambassador Class was never said to be retired. I agree with what was previously said, that there were few of them to begin with, as the Excelsior was being mass-produced and the Galaxy Project was underway virtually when the Enterprise C was lost. I think there was a line in "Yesterday's Enterprise" that due to the way the 1701-C was so outgunned, the Ambassador was deemed to be insufficient as a platform for missions which included danger. Also, the C was barely 5 years old when it was destroyed, and typically the Enterprise was always one of the initial models to roll out of the shipyard for its given class. And 15-20 years after production, the Galaxy class was launched, which indicates that the Ambassador was cancelled in favor of the increasingly promising Galaxy.
Also note that there was sort of a lull in hostile activity between 2295 and the launch of the Enterprise D. The Klingons were allies, and the Romulans withdrew from contact with the Federation after Narendra III. The Cardassian War occurred, but it has been established that a Galor-Class is no match for an Excelsior Class, much less an Ambassador. Most countries today will ususally slow production of armaments in order to save money or resources. That's why the US Air Force continued to use the F-16 as its primary aircraft for nearly two decades.
As well, just because we don't see Ambassador Class ships, does not necessarily mean they are not there. According to various episodes, Starfleet has over 800 active starships in space at a given time. We never saw nearly that many in all of the series combined. In short, its a big galaxy, and even large ships are comparatively small.
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(Note: The above poster was incorrect in stating that there were multiple Excelsior models. Every time you see an Excelsior class, refitted or otherwise, its the Excelsior built for Star Trek III, according to the documentaries on the TNG DVD sets. The same goes for the Miranda. It's always the Reliant with a fresh coat of paint.)
Actually there were multiple models made. The original model (NX 2000/NCC 2000) had added parts added to it to make the NCC 1701-B. The glue used to hold the extra bits on the side of the stardrive couldn't be removed without damaging the model (that's why the Lakota appeared in the same configuration). They had to build another model in the original Excelsior configuration for filming. Btw, TNG was before DS9 so, yeah, they would have used the original model since it was only for Generations it was modified. So the period between Generations (or perhaps paradise lost) and when DS9 switched to CGI was infact a different model.
I've actually come up with another reason that the Ambassador wasn't included in the dominion wars. It was a big ship with 1 engine. That = slow and unmanuverable. Against the dominion that spells trouble, especially with their bug ships. An Excelsior could most probibly dodge them and the superior fire power of the Galaxy means that it should be able to stop it in time. Also the saucer seperation of the Galaxy could most probibly save most people if they were hit. So perhaps the Ambassadors were in the reserve fleet with ships like Constitutions and Constellations. The Ambassador could most probibly hold it's own against other enemies but just not the dominions tactics. They were most probibly put into active service after the war.
Actually, the Enterprise C came under fire from 4 Romulan Warbirds and managed to destroy 2 of them after going back in time with Lt. Yar (Yesterday's Enterprise version). If one of them was named Enterprise, it must've been a success, because ever class with a ship named Enterprise is supposed to have the latest and greatest technology of the time. What i wonder is why we never saw any Ambassador Class ships in the Dominion War. If anything, the Ambassador Class would've been much stronger if refitted with the newest shields, armor, weapons, and warp drive assuming it was refitted like the Lakota.
Sorry, I stand corrected. But, it shows that the Ambassador was even stronger than I stated.
We never saw any other Defiant, Nova, Intrepid, or Sovereign class ships, but we know that more that 1 of them exist.
Defiant Class:
USS Defiant (NX 74205)
USS Defiant (NCC 74205-A)
USS Valiant (NCC 74210)
USS Sao Paulo (NCC 75633)
USS Antares (NCC 74699)
Terran Defiant
Intrepid Class:
USS Voyager (NCC 74656)
USS Bellephron (NCC 74705)
USS Intrepid (NCC 74600) On computer screen.
Nova Class:
USS Equinox (NCC 72381)
USS Rhode Island (NCC 72701)
USS Nova (NCC 73515) On computer screen.
We also see a Nova class in Azati Prime.
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We never saw any other Defiant, Nova, Intrepid, or Sovereign class ships, but we know that more that 1 of them exist.
Defiant Class:
USS Defiant (NX 74205)
USS Defiant (NCC 74205-A)
USS Valiant (NCC 74210)
USS Sao Paulo (NCC 75633)
USS Antares (NCC 74699)
Terran Defiant
Intrepid Class:
USS Voyager (NCC 74656)
USS Bellephron (NCC 74705)
USS Intrepid (NCC 74600) On computer screen.
Nova Class:
USS Equinox (NCC 72381)
USS Rhode Island (NCC 72701)
USS Nova (NCC 73515) On computer screen.
We also see a Nova class in Azati Prime.
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just to clarify, i meant during the Dominion War on DS9, not including Voyager, TNG, or Enterprise.
Also, if anyone has read the Dominion War books series, Book one has an Ambassador Class called the Aurora which was destroyed as the Enterprise-E attempting to rescue it. I KNOW ITS NOT CANNON TO THE SHOW, but its nice to think that the Ambassadors were used during the war.
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Lukerobin, where did you get that information about a new Excelsior model being built? Not trying to be a jerk, really. I love the production stuff, and everything I've seen or read has indicated that there was only one Excelsior model used. If you can cite where you found that info, I'd appreciate it, as I'd love to read it.
I researched this a further. It seems that the Ambassador model also deteriorated while in storage after its last use. That's probably the most likely reason we never saw it, the model wasn't in good shape, and why build a new one for the few shots it would appear in?
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There were two Excelsior models, a second one was built for Voyager's Flashback episode and was smaller than the first model and had lit nacelles. I believe that this model was then used in DS9 in season 4 and 5 until the CGI model was created. This also explains why DS9 Excelsiors had lit nacelles. But we're getting off topic.
I would have liked to think that with loses to the Borg in both engagements and with the Dominion cold war that Starfleet did indeed upgrade the Ambassadors to the level of the Galaxy/Nebula class and the reason we've not saw any is because as said before there are only a few ships still in service. I agree that this class of ship should have had more airtime instead of using the Miranda and Oberth class all the time in TNG.
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funny thing there IS an ambassador on the battle of wolf359 at the beginning of DS9, but they disappear for the war.
I don't think CGI has anything to do with that. if something is beautiful already, CGI'd i'ts better
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Lukerobin, where did you get that information about a new Excelsior model being built? Not trying to be a jerk, really. I love the production stuff, and everything I've seen or read has indicated that there was only one Excelsior model used. If you can cite where you found that info, I'd appreciate it, as I'd love to read it.
From memory alpha:
"The original Excelsior-class was a physical filming model designed by Nilo Rodis and Bill George. It was built at Industrial Light & Magic for Star Trek III under the supervision of Steve Gawley. The model also appeared in Star Trek IV and was relabeled for use in the first two seasons of The Next Generation. The model was refurbished for its appearance in Star Trek VI.
The model was again refurbished, with entirely new arrangements and details to represent a refit modification, the NCC-1701-B in Generations. The refit modifications were designed by John Eaves under the supervision of production designer Herman Zimmerman. Since the original model could not be returned to its original configuration, a new one was built by Greg Jein when the Excelsior appeared in "Flashback," at a smaller scale. This model continued to be reused until a CGI Excelsior was built for later seasons of DS9 and Voyager. Despite its age, the Excelsior has become one of Starfleet's most frequently seen "guest-star" vessels."
Here's the link aswell:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Excelsior_class (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Excelsior_class)
Strange thing is, the is no mention of the new model on the VOY: Flashback page on memory alpha. I doubt that this model was used much as they switched to CGI shortly after.
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It did mention the smaller one built for Flashback, you just posted it!
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It did mention the smaller one built for Flashback, you just posted it!
Yes but look up the episode Flashback on memory alpha. There is no mention of the new model on that page even though it was built for that episode. The text I posted is from the Excelsior Class page.
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Ah I get you, I've read the Excelsior article a number of times but never the Flashback one. I'll go check it out. :D
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Not sure if this has been covered, but Miranda's, Excelsiors, Saber's, Steamrunners etc, are comparatively small ships, so quicker to build and bring into service
This has a number of advantages, both tactically and economically;
- Smaller ships tend to be faster more manoeuvrable and generally harder to hit.
- They're quicker to build.
- Multiple smaller ships attacking single larger ships is a tactical advantage (as proven by the dominion)
- More ships to send on more, separate, missions.
The Ambassador, by comparison, is almost the size of the Galaxy, and has the relevant construction time limitations.
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Not sure if this has been covered, but Miranda's, Excelsiors, Saber's, Steamrunners etc, are comparatively small ships, so quicker to build and bring into service
This has a number of advantages, both tactically and economically;
- Smaller ships tend to be faster more manoeuvrable and generally harder to hit.
- They're quicker to build.
- Multiple smaller ships attacking single larger ships is a tactical advantage (as proven by the dominion)
- More ships to send on more, separate, missions.
The Ambassador, by comparison, is almost the size of the Galaxy, and has the relevant construction time limitations.
and as I said on one of my earlier posts, 1 engine on a ship that size spells trouble with the dominion bug ships.
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Hmmm. One source or the other on the Excelsior model is true. Either the featurettes on the Next Gen DVDs were mistaken (Which really could be, as some of the people on it don;t seem to know crap about Star Trek), but Memory Alpha is also a Wiki, which means it is not 100% guaranteed accurate. It doesn't really matter, though, and I think we're getting off topic a bit.
I think the 1 impulse drive on the Amby is indicaive of what I said earlier. They had no reason to feel threatened, peace broke out for a change, and the Amby was built weak so it could accomodate more scientific staff and equipment, much like the later Galaxy class. I mean, the D was supposed to be the best ship in the fleet, and look how often it got its butt kicked in battle. That's why the Sovereign class was built in the first place, because the Galaxy obviously was not a good match for the Borg.
I want to know where the Sovvy's were in the Dominion War. I can see why the Ambassadors might be out of date, but the most powerful ships in the fleet? I would think they would be on the front lines. (And they already had the conventional and 3D models from First Contact!)
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The real life reason the sovvy was never seen on tv was because it was designed as a "movie" ship and not meant for tv, thats why they never showed it in any series,
Thats the reason they gave in the First Contact special features if i remember correctly, but i DID see/read it somewhere from the designer.
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If I remember correctly, they killed the D in Generations because it looked "fat and bloated" on a movie screen (which I somewhat agree with). The Sovereign might have been okay for TV. I mean, I've watched FC, Insurrection, and Nemesis on a normal TV, and it looks just fine. In any case, they could have at least mentioned that Sovereign class ships were engaged elsewhere. I often wondered during the later years of DS9 why they never even mentioned the Enterprise. The Dominion War was tightly focused around DS9 because of the Wormhole. Why not have some of the TNG crew make a special appearance or something. I would think it would stand to reason that the Federation flagship would be on the front lines, especially given that it is the most advanced ship in the fleet. I mean, the other FC ships made it in (Akira, Steamrunner, Norway), and they were obviously built to look good on the big screen, yet they looked fine on DS9. I think it was simply the ignorance of the show's writers that left them out. Script writers really should know something about their material.
I think the most obvious reason is that they wanted to keep the "mystique" of the Sovereign for movies, even though it too got the crap kicked out of it in all three of its appearances.
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Perhaps in the ST universe they were too expesive to build or took too long to make. In real life it's easy to give the explination (just like with the Ambassador). I'm also guessing that they wern't building much new ships duning the DW because it would be easier to upgrade the fleet.
Actually, perhaps the Sovvies were defending Earth along with the Prommiethius.
If I remember correctly, they killed the D in Generations because it looked "fat and bloated" on a movie screen (which I somewhat agree with).
It could have gone out in a bigger blaze of glory like having multiple Klingon ships on it. However, that crash scene was fantastic. I was amazed by the effects.
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I don't agree with the size thing. I mean, look how many Galaxy class ships there were in the war. Not to mention that I remember reading somewhere that by necessity, a lot of ships were rushed into production during the war, sent out with maybe a bit more than a skeleton crew and a lot of empty space rather than crew amenities.
Here's my take. The war's main front was seemingly spearheaded by Adm. Ross's fleet. However, they were just one fleet. The entire Starfleet comprised of many, many ships, and quite frankly, unless there was some other place it was needed, ie. the "Battle of Betazed" or whatever, the Enterprise-E SHOULD have been at the Battle of Cardassia Prime. It was the final blow in the Dominion War, and frankly I would expect the Federation flagship to be at the forefront. Therefore, I assume that it was busy with another fleet elsewhere to try and keep any reinforcements from sneaking up on Adm. Ross's butt. And I'd be willing to bet that some Ambassadors were stationed along side it, along with other ships that might have given those ridge-headed drug addicts something to worry about.
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I don't agree with the size thing. I mean, look how many Galaxy class ships there were in the war. Not to mention that I remember reading somewhere that by necessity, a lot of ships were rushed into production during the war, sent out with maybe a bit more than a skeleton crew and a lot of empty space rather than crew amenities.
Mainly because they had all the spare parts lying about. There were enough to build like 7 Galaxy class starships in short time. But as I stated before the Ambassadors parts semmed unique to that ship so building it most probibly took more time and just as much resources.
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Well the ambassador class in BC is simply terrible, easily the weakest ship out there in quick battle save for the shuttle and maybe the galor. Older than a galaxy, not nearly as strong as the akira, not as advanced as a soverign , and certainly not as nimble as a nebula. If this is any indicator of how they were supposed to perform in the real Star Trek universe, then the reasons for scrapping this ship is clear. It might've stood up well in the post excelsior and pre enterprise d days (think of Enterprise C, in: Yesterday's Enterprise TNG) which probably earned the title heavy cruiser, but with the new ships of the line out it simply can't compete in this newer era of quantum torpedos and transwarp gateways.
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It's probably comparable to a late World War II battleship - wonderfully designed to excel in a world that no longer exists.
Between that and the Narendra III incident, I can understand why Starfleet would give the Enterprise name a rest. In fact, only the original Enterprise, the D, and the E were legendary in their own right before being damaged or destroyed; the A through C, according to canon, did nothing to earn the honor of their names until they were severely damaged, and in the case of the C, destroyed.
Is it just bad luck?
Anyway, the Ambassador seems like the bastard child of Starfleet R&D, and the black sheep of the TNG era as a whole.
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How about just because the design sucked in epic proportions?
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How about just because the design sucked in epic proportions?
Short, simple and I think hit the nail on the head Adonis.
Starfleet probably said yeah it will do, got the Apollo class out of it then moved on to the Galaxy family of designs using lessons learned from the Ambassador.
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the ambassador looks awesome
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I doubt that Starfleet, knowing that the Ambassador 'sucked in epic proportions', would name one of them Enterprise. Don't you?
It's more reasonable to think that Starfleet intended for the Ambassador-class to replace the Excelsior, but a massive shift in technology pushed the Ambassador into obsolescence before its time.
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I doubt that Starfleet, knowing that the Ambassador 'sucked in epic proportions', would name one of them Enterprise. Don't you?
It's more reasonable to think that Starfleet intended for the Ambassador-class to replace the Excelsior, but a massive shift in technology pushed the Ambassador into obsolescence before its time.
This is the most likely possibility. It's like with the current generation. We had a sudden surge of new stuff coming out all rapidly, so much so that a number of things (while impressive when released) were shot down within a month or less by something with a different approach, that wound up being clearly superior. The Ambassador most likely was titled, a breakthrough occurred, and (having being put into service) went on it's mission of however long. Strange that the Starfleet -flagship- wouldn't get the same rights as a lowly -Defiant- though.
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I also doubt the idea that the Enterprise, a ship that almost never travels in a fleet, is the true Federation flagship. What navy sends its flagship alone on missions of exploration?
That said, I would expect some kind of dedicated command cruiser to be the Federation's true 'flagship', and the Enterprise to be the unofficial flagship and 'poster child' of Starfleet.
That, however, has nothing to do with the poor Ambassador.
So, I wonder what Starfleet did with the Ambassador after it was phased out as Starfleet's leading heavy cruiser. Did it just serve as a diplomatic transport (which explains the Spartan bridge) or become part of the reserve fleet, or was it mothballed entirely? Is there any canon present to determine the Ambassador's fate?
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I also doubt the idea that the Enterprise, a ship that almost never travels in a fleet, is the true Federation flagship. What navy sends its flagship alone on missions of exploration?
That said, I would expect some kind of dedicated command cruiser to be the Federation's true 'flagship', and the Enterprise to be the unofficial flagship and 'poster child' of Starfleet.
That, however, has nothing to do with the poor Ambassador.
So, I wonder what Starfleet did with the Ambassador after it was phased out as Starfleet's leading heavy cruiser. Did it just serve as a diplomatic transport (which explains the Spartan bridge) or become part of the reserve fleet, or was it mothballed entirely? Is there any canon present to determine the Ambassador's fate?
AFAIK, it's a Diplomatic Cruiser. Also, space navy's seem to be different, but.. With the Ent-D being so gorram strong (Then there's the Ent-E, yeesh), I'd say it's a fleet in itself.
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Every Enterprise in Star Trek has made for an exceptionally poor Flagship for the following reasons:
1) No flag officer was ever intended to command the Enterprise. (RAdm. Kirk stole command from Capt. Decker, remember.)
2) Enterprise has never had any involvement in the command and control functions of Starfleet. By definition, a flagship is meant to coordinate a fleet, not wander the cosmos LY from the nearest escorts.
3) A flagship would, as I said before, be surrounded by escorts. Starfleet would be out of their damn minds to send their actual flagship on five-year missions of exploration.
4) Flagships are not always the fastest, newest, or most powerful ships in the fleet, whereas all Enterprises, except the Ent-A, have been named Enterprise because of their speed, novelty, or power.
That said, I would expect the true flagship of Starfleet to have a separate 'flag bridge', for use by the Admiralty and their staff, as well as a command bridge, and a few other modifications (faster warp drive, maybe).
My conclusion is that Enterprise is not Starfleet's actual 'flagship' (as in, a mobile command and control center), but simply the most well-known ship and Starfleet's icon of power.
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Well there can certainly be other flagships out there, like during Wolf 359 or Battle of Sector 001, the ship that happened to be carrying the admiral was considered a flagship just due to the admiral directing the fleet.
That said, I'm it was repeatedly stated in TNG in various episodes that Ent-D was considered "a" if not "the" flagship of Starfleet. This was earlier in the series because there probably weren't many other Galaxy or other new innovative ships out there. Like you said it was more of a posterchild.
Or it could be assumed that during a major fleet action the Enterprise would be the major command ship and since TNG never showed the Enterprise in a major fleet action it was never able to live up to its potential. One other thing I might note: During the opening battle of First Contact, Battle of Sector 001, when the Enterprise E arrived and discovered the admiral's ship to be destroyed, Picard quickly assumed command of the strike force and directed the actions which ultimately lead to the cube's destruction. Now whether this was because Picard had background knowledge of the Borg, the Enterprise E was the strongest ship and considered "a" flagship, or Picard was considered a senior captain in Starfleet, or a combination of the three is up for debate.
Also, I would not expect for there to be a significant Admiral staff or seperate flag bridge in Star Trek. If you look at the DS9 Episode Sacrifice of Angels which revolved around Starfleet's battle to retake DS9, Captain Sisko not only sinlge handedly directed the entire Starfleet combined squadron, but did so will remaining captain of the Defiant during a heated battle. Flag staffs in US Navy, and others i'm sure, are comprised of people like Anti-Submarine or Anti-Air warfare officers, but in space you don't need any of those. As Sisko and Picard have demostrated, all you need is a sound objective and a keen mind and you can lead a fleet of starships (while leading your ship too).
But getting back to the Ambassador: It probably had its highlights during the beginning of TNG when it was still one of the top dogs (you'll notice in several episodes people call it the Ambassador-class heavy cruiser instead of the Ambassador-class) but during the middle to end of DS9 and First Contact newer ships with greater speed and power ultimately forced it into retirement. Which is the life of any ship, its just the evolution of technology.
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personally, i think the Enterprise-D was considered "a" if not "the" flagship of the Federation, because Gene Roddenberry wanted to show how advanced the Enterprise-D was from the TOS 1701. It's set 100 years after Kirk, and the 1701-D is bigger, faster, stronger, and much much newer. Picard assumed command of the ship while she was still parked in a dock. When Kirk took command of the Enterprise it was close to 20-25 years old. I think the Enterprise-D was the chosen to be the Representative ship for the Federation, primarily for diplomatic and exploratory missions. When she needed to be, the Ent-D was also a powerful defensive for the Feds.
I just dont understand the point of sending a ship full of families into the unknown... damn illogical if ya ask me.
I have a model of the Enterprise-C, and it just doesnt scream "powerful" at me. Its really a mix of the Galaxy class and Excelsior class. I think it may have been a good idea on paper when the starfleet engineers thought of it...
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Is it possible that the Starfleet of the early 2300s was more militaristic than the Starfleet of the 2360s (before the Borg or Dominion)? Assuming that this is true, the Ambassador, developed in an age where the Federation remained in conflict with the Klingon Empire (Khitomer didn't end everything), would not have supported any appreciable number of civilians. The Galaxy class, on the other hand, was built in Starfleet's golden age of peace and exploration, and someone in Starfleet Command probably considered carrying large numbers of civilians safe at the time.
To me, the Ambassador-class just screams Constitution. I believe that it was designed to serve as an explorer more along the lines of the 1701, but this goal was sidetracked by conflict with the Romulans and, eventually, the launch of the Nebula and Galaxy cruisers. After it was rendered obsolete in exploration and combat alike, it would have made a wonderful choice for a diplomatic escort, but that still doesn't explain why it was called the Ambassador-class in the first place.
I also think that Ambassador is just a bad name for a heavy cruiser.
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...or just maybe SF-s definition of flagships is different from the naval one of today. As for the design itself, look under Probert Ambassador study. THAT should have been the Ambassador we know, not Jein's POS excuse.
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...or just maybe SF-s definition of flagships is different from the naval one of today. As for the design itself, look under Probert Ambassador study. THAT should have been the Ambassador we know, not Jein's POS excuse.
I totally agree with Adonis on both points. Probert's Ambassador is gorgeous, shame there wasn't enough time for a model to be built for the show.
Also the other Enterprises besides the D and E seem to be run of the mill class members, the D being called the Flagship seems to prove she's the most advanced ship and has the best crew which was referenced alot in the show.
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How so? The NX and 1701 Enterprises -were- top-of-the-line explorers at the time of their respective series, the A was identical to the 1701 refit, the B was a brand-new modified Excelsior, and the C was a newly-launched Ambassador, which must have been cutting edge at the time.
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coming back to probert's ambassador, has anyone modelled it for bc?
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coming back to probert's ambassador, has anyone modelled it for bc?
Not that i know of, man it would be class.
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coming back to probert's ambassador, has anyone modelled it for bc?
I second that
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I'd give it a go, but there doesn't seem to be any schematics.
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what if you go with the concept and run with it?
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I've only seen one pic of Probert's Ambassador... unfortunately I must admit that I'm not fond of it; I prefer the original to be honest. And even then... I'm not too fond of that one, either. :/ Though I might think differently if there were some CGI pictures or some diagrams or... SOMETHING....
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Did someone say CGI, google is a marvelous thing
http://www.probertdesigns.com/Folder_STORE/Folder_CONCEPT-KITS/Ambassador_Kit.html[url]] (http://[/url)http://www.probertdesigns.com/Folder_STORE/Folder_CONCEPT-KITS/Ambassador_Kit.htmlhttp://
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I did google it, but I only ever found the actual model thingy. :(
Oh well, thanks! Hmm... it's okay. That secondary hull really makes it look fat at some angles, though, and those nacelles are so thin they're out of place... but still... I kinda like it. Looks nice and sleek at other angles.
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Hmm, this has orthographical views? Really shows the Excelsior design theories in it too.. Maybe I will add it to the list...
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This should of been the Ambassador instead of the one we know. It's a perfect fit between the Excelsior and Galaxy.
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I'm not 100% convinced, Proberts looks a little fat and the nacelle pylons dont sit with me, maybe a meld of the two designs
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If someone would buy the kit and scan the orthos, I could make it. Use the painting as a coloring guide.
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I may just have a go at this when my Max skills become better and when i've finished the Avenger, Zandura and YOH Bridge. Although i'd make it a bit more streamlined.
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Quoted from memory alpha
"The original Excelsior-class was a physical filming model designed by Nilo Rodis and Bill George. It was built at Industrial Light & Magic for Star Trek III under the supervision of Steve Gawley. The model also appeared in Star Trek IV and was relabeled for use in the first two seasons of The Next Generation. The model was refurbished for its appearance in Star Trek VI.
The model was again refurbished, with entirely new arrangements and details to represent a refit modification, the NCC-1701-B in Generations. The refit modifications were designed by John Eaves under the supervision of production designer Herman Zimmerman. Since the original model could not be returned to its original configuration, a new one was built by Greg Jein when the Excelsior appeared in "Flashback," at a smaller scale. This model continued to be reused until a CGI Excelsior was built for later seasons of DS9 and Voyager. Despite its age, the Excelsior has become one of Starfleet's most frequently seen "guest-star" vessels."
Also to note the Constituition class is also absent from all 24th Cenutry trek (with the exception of a wrecked saucer and secondary hull in the best of both worlds version of wolf 359).
I did see the Ambassador model in a London expo about 8 years ago, the model was about 4ft long.
I guess the Excelsior was more shooting friendly and when they went over to CGI they took it there to remain consistant in the look of the star fleet
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one word.
urgh..
the canonical ambassador does for me :)
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coming back to probert's ambassador, has anyone modelled it for bc?
I believe the Dawnstar (http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/file/Dawnstar_Class_Heavy_Cruiser;41588) is the closest thing to that.
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Wiley is building Probert's Ambassador design. Or at least something very close to it. Check out his thread in the BC Modding section.
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Well my opinion is like this.
Why do you see a lot of other classes? Like say Miranda class ships, Excelsior Class Ships etc? Would you send your top of the line ships into battle? Yeah, Ambassador, Galaxy Class Ships, etc are all 'battle' ships to a extent. The rest of the fleet is just back up pretty much.
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Well the Consitition went from 2240-2293 from cannon sources, thats a short amount of time considering the Excelscior went from 2285-2280, Other ships in the fleet also have experinced a short life, Souyz class comes to mind, yes Bozeman was refitted but that was most likly because of the build up to fight the borg, not class usefullness. Ambassador may have experinced a short life. From what we can infer from Yesterdays Enterprise, the class was using what appears to be very late TMP tech, likly very late duotronic systems, and early phaser arrays. Given the scope and size of this ship it would likly be cheaper to refit 2 excelscior class ships than to replace the entire computer system of an ambassador. Also cannon sources point to a few other things, 12 consitition class vessels where commissioned despite any other sources this is the canon number. Now Ambassador's may have only been produced in small numbers. Also Starfleet experinced the Cardassian war in the 2350's this may have damaged or destroyed these vessels. Also the 2nd Kitomer Accords happened right after EntC was blown to hell, part of it may have been a scale back on heavy cruisers as part of the treaty. There are any number of reasons for this lack of the vessles. Also the Galaxy began in the 2250's Ambassador was introduced sometime in the 2330-2344 giving it a short life before facitites where used for the Galaxy.
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well, I think I know what New Hampton Yards might be working on in the future, as soon as worfie gets back to the houseboat. Ambassador and (as far as I'm concerned) Excelsior both need a power-tune.
Personally, i think Amby's got the same delay problem the Excel's did...probably a 10 year stall due to a design goof. ambassador probably config dates back to the 2310's.
and, yes, i see someone's noticed the flip-flop between series and concepts.
Gene made OS a space western, and had to take the brainy elements out that he wanted to stick in in the first place (which is why he had to make a second pilot). the OM era built on the original cast's rep. next G, however, went to the brainy stuff gene wanted in the first place, and was practically booed off the Paramount lot, till Riker grew the beard (Gene rehashing the OS episodes didn't help the first two seasons). that's why all the ships were toned down. the Post-Khitomer era was a detente era. after gene died, the guys who took over tried to put the action back in. the succeeded well enough with DS9, but Voyager was so inconsistent (and full of cheezecake) that even the actors got annoyed! then there was the prequal, Enterprise, which EVERYBODY said sucked. I'm still trying to figure out why, but I think it's because they crossed OS and Voyager concepts.
one of the classic novels points out one of the reasons for a tone-down, as does the "alien worm" conspiracy ep in NG, ST:Insurrection, etc. Starfleet has been tring to find a balance between exploration and millitary mode. it doesn't help that in every generation, a millitary nut pops up who wants to put butt-kicking back into Starfleet. Ambassadors come from a time when there was less to worry about (the Klingons burned out and were recovering, the romulans were off sulking, and, most likely Section 31 was behaving itself), and switched to the explorers angle, which is why they were so whimpy. the pendulum started swinging the other way again when Q dropped the D in the middle of Borg sensor range.
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then there was the prequal, Enterprise, which EVERYBODY said sucked.
Speak for yourself man. Season 4 was able to get tears out of me.
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I liked Enterprise, but as for the ambassador there is no reason to assume it had a string of failures either. Also the Excelscior was in wide spread production we saw that in TNG, and the first clue we have that the Excelscior is an operation ship is in STVI and on West's charts I only saw one Excelscior class ship, its name wasnt the Excelscrior either so that gives 2 ships of the class by 2293. Now if the class is just starting wide spread production by this time starting a brand new heavy cruiser 20 years later doesnt make a bit of sense, not from the data we have at least. The Connie was introduced sometime in the 2240's, the Excelscior didnt take over till the 2290's and wasnt finished till 2285 thats 45years and 50 till it entered service. Now we can infer the Excelscior class was a good ship, and we also know it was about twice the size of the connie in mass. Now also the Tomed Incident was 2311, if starfleet started building Ambassador Class's right after the tomed incident it would likly start a war with the Romulans, no reason to provoke them. It makes more sense to infer a build date of about 2330 for these vessles given what we know of the Federation and of Starfleet. There would have to be a reason to build these vessels first. Rising Tensions with the Klingons would be a valid reason. The Galaxy Class started design during the Cardassian wars, giving that ship a reason, though the war was over before it left Space Dock, but we didnt see many other Galaxy Class's either, untill the Domion War broke out. The Intrepid, Defiant, Akaria, Saber, Steamrunner, Sovergin where all built to combat the borg after Wolf359. So I would infer the Ambassador is from a time when war with the Klingons was feared inevitiable again.
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Personally think the Ambassador is the replacement for the Excelssor and miranda class ships, their just getting to old. I mean look at the dominion war, every battle those ships were falling left and right. I think in the post nemsis era the ambassador should be refitted/built to TNG Galaxy specs. It can easily take over the role, its cheap to build and the space frame should be able to handle most of whats thrown at if for the next 50 years just like the excelssior and mirandas have. I think the Ambassadors are just getting to a running pace just like the older classes were during the post TOS/Movie era
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Well the ambassador got very little screen time. Excelscior and Mirindia class's are fan favorites, so instead of going smart they went what the fans prefer design wise. The Excelscior was introduced in 2285, the second confimed ship was the EnterpriseB in 2293. We know the EnterpriseC was destroyed in 2344. Given the C had to be at least the second vessel of the class, and that the Galaxy design phase started in 2350 the Ambassador would have to predate it to at least 2330 given refrance we have, and the complete nonsense to bring a new Heavy Cruiser online 10 years after the launch of another. So the Ambassador has to be old enough a new cruiser was deemed needed as the Ambassador could no longer meet the demands. So giving that, the Excelscior product run would be from sometime after 2293 till 2330 logicly. But there are odd balls with newer 2360 registries that elude to them still being produced which also makes no sense.
The whole reason we dont see them often is quite simple, they never made a CGI model for DS9, which is quite a pity honestly, as the class has about 2/3 the enternal space of a Galaxy and can by far be more useful than the Excelscior. Also the steamrunner or intrepid class's should have phased the Excelscior out, but again for some reason, the Intrepid isnt shown during the Domionon war on screen, the USS Intrepid is mentioned, but for such a small ship, about the size of an Excelscior and computer and weapons systems it is a light cruiser, and would make a better addition than 50+ year old hulls.
But the Ambassador should have been in the major battles, it wasnt because the DS9 art team never built one in CGI aka they where to damn lazy
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The way I see it, the Ambassador's roll went the way of the Battleship. The US Navy's Iowa class for example, was the last class of US battleships commissioned, just before the end of WWII. Unfortunately for the Iowas the war taught Navy planners that BBs are inharently vulnerable to aircraft, so all of the US BBs were either mothballed or decommissioned, including the Iowa class, after only a few short years of service. Of course some of the Iowas were later brought out of mothballs and used off and on into the 90s, but other classes were completely scrapped, some like the South Dakota's after serving less then 10 years.
While other classes outlasted the BBs by a wide margin. Essex class carriers built in the mid 40s remained in active service all the way to the 90s, the class even remained in production for a few years after the war with improved models, such as the Ticonderoga class.
My theory is that it was just deemed better to keep the Mirandas and Excelsiors, maybe there was some flaw in the design of the Ambassadors, or maybe it was cheaper or easier to modernize the Mirandas and Excelsiors then to put the Ambassadors through SLEP. Maybe, with the Galaxys coming into the fleet in the 2360s, they just didn't need another Heavy Cruiser class any more, the other two aren't really heavies anyway the Miranda's been a frigate from the outset, and compared to newer ships the Excelsior would have had to have been downgraded to Light Cruiser, it's just too small to stand toe to toe against a Romulan Warbird, or any other CA for that matter.
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Well can it be classified as a heavy cruiser? I mean the Galaxy was already being planned with the ambassador was first being built. Maybe it was like the WWII North Carolina class of battle ships, it was a test bed for the features that went into the Iowa class battle ships, the ambassador was the test bed for what the Galaxy class was going to be, I remember reading that the ambassador class was the first to use phaser strips. Plus they were the first that necelle design so different from the TOS era ships but matches the Galaxy class and later ships? I think they meant to build just one or 2 but because of the degrading relations with the klingons and the war with the cardassians they decided to build more because the excellsiors and miranda were probably in bad need of refits and they couldn't wait for the bigger Galaxy class to be built when they were just on the drawing board. I believe they were a limited class like the WWII north carolina class, they fitted the itch starfleet needed to scratch at the time. It gave the a new battleship everyone to be afraid of, klingon relations grew, starfleet won the war against the cardassians, it gave time for the older TOS era ships needed to be brought up to date, and then the Galaxy came in, and they didn't need to make them anymore. They had fresh refited ships that were cheaper and easier to, repair, refit, and deal with and they have brand new big battle ship that was the flag ship design of the fleet
The few ships that were built probably got refited with type X phasers, new warp coils, shield grid, and torpedos and fought in the war. Remember in "yesterdays enterprise" they mention the ship was very maneuverable at the time. I would venture to say the ship was probably classified as a fast cruiser or a battle cruiser for its smaller size and speed
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most sources I've read call it a Heavy Cruiser or Exploratory Cruiser, although it does seem like it could be more of a Battlecruiser or a Pocket Battleship, I guess.
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all next G era ships are considered "explorers". after the Khitomer incident, and while the romulans were offscreen (probably dealing with a coup or pushing down the Remans, again), they shifted away from the millitary tint that they no longer needed. when the Dominion threw a monkey-wrench in the works, it came back.
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I dunno I still think it was a test bed for the new generation of ships, mainly the galaxy class, but also the nebula class. There was nothing like it before and all the newer TNG and beyond ships take alot of characteristics like warp necelle design, phaser strips, smoother lines
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yea but you dont build a ship that big just as a test bed, something smaller like refit an oberth or Mirinda or Constellation would make more sense than to build such a large ship, even building a new test bed would be better suited with a smaller vessel. Not even our navy builds full massive ships to test on they either refit older ones to test the stuff or build smaller escort sized ships to do it.
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yea but you dont build a ship that big just as a test bed, something smaller like refit an oberth or Mirinda or Constellation would make more sense than to build such a large ship, even building a new test bed would be better suited with a smaller vessel. Not even our navy builds full massive ships to test on they either refit older ones to test the stuff or build smaller escort sized ships to do it.
Well like I said it was a test bed for all the new tech, nothing was seen like it before, it bridged the gap between TOS/TMP era and TNG era ships. Yea they can test all the new tech in different older ships, but that is only viable for so long, they have to put the tech together to build a ship, after that it can be updated and tweaked to fix glitches before the big bad Galaxy is made. The Navy does this too, eventually all the tech comes together, the tech is pushed and developed further, then made into a final design that lasts a long time before its refited and updated years later, then finally retired. Putting brand new tech into old ships won't ever be as good as building a all new ship, cheaper yes, but not as good, the Lakota is a prime example of this. Lets face it by this time Starfleet had to realize these ships were flat out worn out, even Picard said when he took command of the Stargazer the ship was flying apart, which goes to show the condition of these ships even after the Ambassador is realeased. The built a all new battle cruiser with all the newest modern tech, tweaked the design from what they learned, and applied the changes and updates to the Galaxy class design
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I just thought of a good example, the USS Enterprise. The Nimitz was already in planning when they first started building it, yet it was some years away from being started but they still built the Big E either way. It was a costly ship to build so they only built one, even though they planned 6, even so with the Nimitz in planning they planned to make 10 anyways. Kinda funny I think, the Big E represents the transition from WWII era ships to modern. Its not as modern as the Nimitz, but more than a match for anything else out there. Its still a strong ship, its a shame their decommisioning it in 2013. Anways this is the way I see the Ambassador class, all the new tech coming together, worked out, made better, then put into the Galaxy, Nebula, ect ect
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well the thing with the Big E was budget cuts to the navy at the time, as it was felt there current WW2/Korea Carriers where doing just fine, when they got funds and premission to build more Carriers again the Enterprise Class Carrier was obsolete.
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Still, one of the first Gerald Ford Class carriers needs to be named Enterprise. Complete with a plaque on the Bridge that looks like the ones from Trek! "5th Ship to bear the name", etc.
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Well my opinion is like this.
Why do you see a lot of other classes? Like say Miranda class ships, Excelsior Class Ships etc? Would you send your top of the line ships into battle? Yeah, Ambassador, Galaxy Class Ships, etc are all 'battle' ships to a extent. The rest of the fleet is just back up pretty much.
Ah, but in infantry warfare, do you send your colonels and generals to the front lines? No. Why? They are much harder to replace. Same goes for larger, more costly ships. The disparaging term is "cannon fodder". Look at all the Mirandas that just disintegrated fighting the Dominion...
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I just thought of a good example, the USS Enterprise. The Nimitz was already in planning when they first started building it, yet it was some years away from being started but they still built the Big E either way. It was a costly ship to build so they only built one, even though they planned 6, even so with the Nimitz in planning they planned to make 10 anyways. Kinda funny I think, the Big E represents the transition from WWII era ships to modern. Its not as modern as the Nimitz, but more than a match for anything else out there. Its still a strong ship, its a shame their decommisioning it in 2013. Anways this is the way I see the Ambassador class, all the new tech coming together, worked out, made better, then put into the Galaxy, Nebula, ect ect
Yeah, they're still experimenting with the new tech at the time, and it's not quite mature enough to build Galaxy. Maybe they're still not quite sure how everything's going to work together. Using the CVN-65 Enterprise as an example, the navy built it with eight reactors, simply for the reason that the technology was new and they didn't know how efficient it would be, and the current standard in conventional carriers, the CVA-63 Kitty Hawk class, had 8 boilers. In fact, Enterprise can't safely run all eight for more than a short time, without risking shaking itself apart.
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I just thought of a good example, the USS Enterprise. The Nimitz was already in planning when they first started building it, yet it was some years away from being started but they still built the Big E either way. It was a costly ship to build so they only built one, even though they planned 6, even so with the Nimitz in planning they planned to make 10 anyways. Kinda funny I think, the Big E represents the transition from WWII era ships to modern. Its not as modern as the Nimitz, but more than a match for anything else out there. Its still a strong ship, its a shame their decommisioning it in 2013. Anways this is the way I see the Ambassador class, all the new tech coming together, worked out, made better, then put into the Galaxy, Nebula, ect ect
Yeah, they're still experimenting with the new tech at the time, and it's not quite mature enough to build Galaxy. Maybe they're still not quite sure how everything's going to work together. Using the CVN-65 Enterprise as an example, the navy built it with eight reactors, simply for the reason that the technology was new and they didn't know how efficient it would be, and the current standard in conventional carriers, the CVA-63 Kitty Hawk class, had 8 boilers. In fact, Enterprise can't safely run all eight for more than a short time, without risking shaking itself apart.
and taking 2 or 3 of them out would mean that the whole reactor system and associated subsystems would need a total redesign, not to mention the possibility of the ship being left an underpowered hulk!
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Maybe because there aren't supposed to be many Ambassador-class starships around? I mean, it's a lot cheaper and easier to simply refit those hundreds of not thousands Excelsior-class flying around than to make completely new ships. And keep in mind, the bigger a ship is the longer it takes to make one. That's why there are so many Nebula's , Defiants and Akira's compared to the small number of Galaxy's.
What the real reason might be, maybe the creators simply didn't like the Ambassador-Class? It's a fact that no CGI model was made of the Ambassador while one was made of the Excelsior and Miranda.
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i thought i read somewhere the studio model like burned down or someting..could be mistaken...
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i thought i read somewhere the studio model like burned down or someting..could be mistaken...
nope... the studio model wasn't lost... it was sold in the trek auction a few years ago.
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any idea how much it sold for? how i wish i could have been the one to buy it...
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According to MA it sold for $40,000