Bridge Commander Central
Recreational Forums => Trek Discussion => Ships & Tech Talk => Topic started by: RifleMan80 on May 29, 2008, 05:35:04 PM
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I have had this question in my head for months!
Which ships would win in a head to head fight?
Miranda vs Constitution?
Nebula vs Galaxy?
All 4 are comparable in design however, as much of a harcore trekkie as I am, i srill cannot figure this one out? What do you guys think?
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It depends on who first gets into a nebula (the fluffy kind) and who remembers that there is a "z" axis first.
So, the best captain and crew wins.
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The Nebula and Miranda are lighter vessels than the Constitution and Galaxy.
Whilst they have similar components, they don't have the same power output. The Nebula was meant to be smaller (R.Steinbach), but forgot that they needed to scale the windows and bridge module as well as the ship.
Anyway the nebula has smaller impulse engines (weird, considering the galaxy suffered complaints of them being too small), reduced fire-arcs, sub-optimal nacelle placement, and reduced hull space for deuterium storage, so a shorter operational range.
The miranda is simply smaller than the constitution, even though it has similar weapons, it wasn't given the same warp core. It's a smaller ship in a different capability range.
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Tactics plays a part as well. A good strategist in a nebula can beat a terrible one in a Galaxy.
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Be that as it may, I thought the Nebulas and Mirandas were the 'smaller cousins' to the Galaxy and the Constitution class.
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Nebula and Miranda will be a lot more maneuverable than Galaxy and Constitution tho they have less powerful weapons and shields, I's been said that victory depends on commander, we've ssen numerous huge ships defeated by almost 2 times smaller vessels ;)
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But with equal commanders and crews in a striaght up fight the Galaxy and Constitution would pound the Nebula and Miranda into dust.
Not to say that victory for a nebula or miranda is impossible under certain circumstances, but it's statistically less likely.
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Was the Miranda not referred to as a faster and more powerful ship in STII, because of the Miranda being a rather new design compared to the ageing Constitution?
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I still got money on the Galaxy and Constitution! A good commander would make use of the vast array of weapons the size to use as an advantage. But even still, depends on whos commanding!
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Nebula and Miranda will be a lot more maneuverable than Galaxy and Constitution tho they have less powerful weapons and shields, I's been said that victory depends on commander, we've ssen numerous huge ships defeated by almost 2 times smaller vessels ;)
Perhaps, but the Galaxy does have one big impulse on the stardrive. As far as I know the difference in mass between the Galaxy and Nebula isn't that different. So as well as being more powerful it should be more manuverable. Also the galaxy can serperate making 2 targets unlike the nebula. But, wern't some Nebulas fitted with Quantums?
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i was just about to say that about the Saucer separation on the galaxy. I believe that the stardrive frees up at least 4 more phaser arrays when the saucer is not included. Also, the mass is just a bit lighter with just the stardrive than the nebula class is . With the Miranda and the Conni, I am still reading about the disadvantages of the conni and miranda. I believe now it would be a stalemate between the two.
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Nebula and Miranda will be a lot more maneuverable than Galaxy and Constitution tho they have less powerful weapons and shields, I's been said that victory depends on commander, we've ssen numerous huge ships defeated by almost 2 times smaller vessels ;)
Perhaps, but the Galaxy does have one big impulse on the stardrive. As far as I know the difference in mass between the Galaxy and Nebula isn't that different. So as well as being more powerful it should be more manuverable. Also the galaxy can serperate making 2 targets unlike the nebula. But, wern't some Nebulas fitted with Quantums?
And nice, big, fat weapons pods?
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The Nebula is a modular vessel meaning it can be adapted to a specific role.
Its not possible to generalise about if it could beat a Galaxy or not as it depends on the mission payload.
As for the Miranda and Connie, well I'd say the Miranda is more durable as its still in service right to the end of the Dominion War era. In a fight, not sure.
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i was just about to say that about the Saucer separation on the galaxy. I believe that the stardrive frees up at least 4 more phaser arrays when the saucer is not included. Also, the mass is just a bit lighter with just the stardrive than the nebula class is . With the Miranda and the Conni, I am still reading about the disadvantages of the conni and miranda. I believe now it would be a stalemate between the two.
From what i can see, after separation the stardrive only reveals 1 more phaser array.
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Each corner of the Stardrive part where it attaches to the Saucer, there are Several emitters there.
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if you a referring to these 2 emitters, im sure they can be used when the saucer section is attached, upon separation the stardrive reveals one more emitter and thats all. As shown below.
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No, not those. Those are Phaser Awways. There are several more that were stated on one of the Star Trek TNG episodes. I observed durring the TNG Episode " Best of Both Worlds Part 1" That the Galaxy Class has a Phaser Emitter in the same spot where the photon torpedo bay is.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/Riflemanyo/Enterprise_under_Borg_attack.jpg) Source: Memory Alpha
And in the TNG episode "Arsenal of Freedom" when the stardrive is not with the saucer,
this area here
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/Riflemanyo/1701d-gus-engineering-top-bottom.jpg)
I believe the galaxy, when separated, has all but one advantage over the Nebula class, whoas commanding. As with the conni and miranda, I say again,a a stalemate.
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I would like to point out that trek's cgi/effects guys VERY often foiled up on things like phasers... I honestly don't see it as physically possible for the forward torpedo bay to double as a phaser array... Especially whilst firing torpedos simultaneously. :/
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I honestly don't see it as physically possible for the forward torpedo bay to double as a phaser array... Especially whilst firing torpedos simultaneously. :/
You clearly don't know sir the marvels of multiphasic construction!
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Yea, i was gonna say the same thing.
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"scotty! We got to jump to warp!"
"I can't sir! The warp coil phase inducers are out of phase with the flux capaciter ion fluxermajigger...." Ah crud I give up. :/
Ah. BUT.
When Jordi was phased out, he was still able to walk on the floor nevertheless. This is positive proof that phases can be done in such a way that they still interact with the rest of the world in some way.
Any such machiney could be stabilized in place in relationship with the rest of the ship with rods that are still, both phased, and nailed on floors and walls then, and any form of cables/buses etc leading in and out of it at some point locally dephased (or rephased) to connect with the rest of the stuff they have to connect to. (eg, a phased powered generator is sending power down a cable, which at some point is targetted by a spot dephasing thingy and is then connected to a power consuming machine in the same place the power generator is)
I reckon, utilizing such construction, we should soon be able to fit a Starbase inside a Shuttle craft. :mrgreen:
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But what advantage does this give the galaxy, nebula, constitution, and miranda over one another in combat? Back to the discussion, anyway,
The Miranda does have an advantage overlooked, maby not. the Rollbar! It has 4 photon torpedo tubes ( 2 front, 2 aft ) and two Multi-directional PIM phaser cannons. The miranda can fire its rollbar as it passes its target or the target passes to its aft, thus causing damage. The Constitution only has 4 RIM emitter aft, and no torpedo tubes. At lease none that I can see. The conni can focus forward fire like line of gatling turrets, but aft and flank combat, the Miranda would but the Conni to pieces.
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Come to think about it, in KA I think that what I was doing with the Miranda was a kind of constant loops? First the forward launchers, then the back, then until I complete the loop the forward ones have charged again, then the back, and so on. Rotate like a screw in the meantime to spread whatever pain the other guy deals to you over all shields.
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I reckon if the Nebula was fittited for combat it would beat an unseperated galaxy. Otherwise I think the galaxy would always win. The nebula, by default, is an explorer whereas the galaxy is a heavy cruiser that's equipped to take on all types of missions.
I think the galaxy has heavy phaser arrays along with heavy shield generators. The nebula is only equipped with medium arrays and generators.
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And in the TNG episode "Arsenal of Freedom" when the stardrive is not with the saucer,
this area here
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/Riflemanyo/1701d-gus-engineering-top-bottom.jpg)
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Those phaser arrays are the two that lint pointed out. The stardrive section does have a little bit of the dorsal saucer attached.
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No, not those. Those are Phaser Awways. There are several more that were stated on one of the Star Trek TNG episodes. I observed durring the TNG Episode " Best of Both Worlds Part 1" That the Galaxy Class has a Phaser Emitter in the same spot where the photon torpedo bay is.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/Riflemanyo/Enterprise_under_Borg_attack.jpg) Source: Memory Alpha
Additionally, the one that looks to be coming from the forward torpedo tube in BOBW is in fact the port pylon emitter.
Its starboard counterpart can clearly be seen.
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Additionally, the one that looks to be coming from the forward torpedo tube in BOBW is in fact the port pylon emitter.
Its starboard counterpart can clearly be seen.
Lol, and the beam doesn't even align with the array. xD
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It was 1990, give em a break! lolz. Anyway. those two arrays were not the ones firing. The drone target was not high enough for those arrays to fire. I am gonna find a screenshot for that one.
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Anyway, I believe a Constitution has the advantage of warp speed over the Miranda, but in firepower, the Miranda wins over the Connie. The Galaxy wins in warp speed, weaponry, shields but the Galaxy class doesnt have the sensor capability the Nebula does, thus the Nebula sort of being a science vessel. Galaxy takes the cake! Its Small ship Big ship ratio here.
Now Miranda vs Galaxy = rape!
Galaxy is superior in design, size, technology, speed, weaponry. But the Miranda has a menasing look to it. But the galaxy would set and laught as the Miranda threw all it had into it.
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Well, here's food for thought: If the constutution was so much superior to the miranda, then why was the miranda deployed fleetwide not only at Wolf 359 (USS Saratoga) but also during the Dominion war, whereas the constitution was decidedly was not?
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More easily upgradable or a more dynamic design?
They had to change practicly the entire ship when the A was appended.
Well, didn't they create a new one? But still, it's a constitution class ship, but heavily alterd, so upgrading it takes a lot of energy and materials.
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More easily upgradable or a more dynamic design?
That may very well be, also let's not forget Kirk almost lost to a Miranda class vessel in ST II. I think those ships are either on par or the miranda is the better ship.
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Well, here's food for thought: If the constutution was so much superior to the miranda, then why was the miranda deployed fleetwide not only at Wolf 359 (USS Saratoga) but also during the Dominion war, whereas the constitution was decidedly was not?
I think it has all to do with the thin neck on the connie. The warp core runs through her and 24th Century weapons would most probibly rip through that section but maybe 23rd century didn't. If so this would be a huge design flaw and would take a lot of energy to fix, so it was most probibly deemed easier to retire the class and replace it with Excelsiors. (Which as we saw seemed much stronger than the Connie in ST6.)
In fact late 23rd century weapons would most probibly rip through the neck. We see in ST6 that the Photon rips through the saucer section when the BOP fires at it. Now if it can do it to the saucer it would most probibly be able to do it to the neck. However ST2 was set quite a few years earlier so it's weapons wern't as powerful so the Connie most probibly was still perfectly fine for service. However in ST6 the Ent A gets decomissioned after the attack. This would suggest that the entire fleet of connies were showing their age against new weapons.
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The connie refits were an inefficient design... yes, they could be upgraded, but as you already said... the neck was quite the design flaw. I think the Miranda triumphed because it's cheaper to construct, extremely capable with both defensive and offensive capabilities and very easily upgradable. Thus, it's lasted a long time... whereas the Connie was simply replaced with newer ships [Excelsior -> Ambassador -> Galaxy -> Sovereign], etc.
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even so, I think that the Connie was stronger in TMP than the Miranda in a 1 on 1 battle with each other
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even so, I think that the Connie was stronger in TMP than the Miranda in a 1 on 1 battle with each other
The connie lacked any aft-firing torpedo bays. It was out-gunned. if it were to have any advantage whatsoever, it may have had stronger shields... maybe a couple more phaser batteries... but that's about it.
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even so, I think that the Connie was stronger in TMP than the Miranda in a 1 on 1 battle with each other
The connie lacked any aft-firing torpedo bays. It was out-gunned. if it were to have any advantage whatsoever, it may have had stronger shields... maybe a couple more phaser batteries... but that's about it.
No, the tactical advantage was a seasoned flag officer with the ovveride codes for their shields and the ability to conduct a space-battle in a three-dimensional environment in stark contrast to a 20th cenuty commander thinking in 2D-terms. With a nequally skilled crew, the Miranda woulda kicked the crap out of that connie.
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No, the tactical advantage was a seasoned flag officer with the ovveride codes for their shields and the ability to conduct a space-battle in a three-dimensional environment in stark contrast to a 20th cenuty commander thinking in 2D-terms.
Ah, yes, this is true.
With an equally skilled crew, the Miranda woulda kicked the crap out of that connie.
And that is what it comes right down to, no? Even with an equally skill crew, the Miranda would have kicked the crap out of the Connie.
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Just elaborating on your point abit more ;)
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Umm,
The Miranda was newer than the Connie, but performed a different role IIRC, so yes a Miranda has the edge in more modern weapons/shielding etc.
The reason it was in service (much like the Excelsior) was that it was still good in its role IMHO.
The Connie was at its design limit and replaced by the Excelsior, which in turn would probably be more powerful than a Miranda due to its role and being newer.
IMHO. :)
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Well, by that logic ou could ask why the Miranda wasn't replaced by the nebula class ;)
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Well these are the specs of the 2 ships (memory alpha).
Miranda (Canon):
Type: Science Vessel/ Supply Ship
Length: 233m
Mass: 665,000 metric tonnes
Weapons: 6 phaser banks (type 7 (all config)), 2 phaser cannons (reliant), 4 Photon Torpedo Launchers.
Defence: Deflector Shields
Crew: 26 (Lantree Config)
Miranda: (DS9 Tech Manual):
Type: Medium Cruiser
Production Base: ASDB Integration Facility, Starbase 134 Integration Facility, Rigel VI
Accommodation: 220 officers and crew; 500 personal evacuation limit
Power Plant: One 1,500 plus Cochrane warp core feeding two nacelles; one impulse system
Dimensions:
Length: 277.76 meters
Beam: 173.98 meters
Height: 65.23 meters
Mass: 655,000 metric tons
Performance: Warp 9.2 for 12 hours
Armament: Six type-7 phaser emitters; two pulse phaser cannons; two photon torpedo launchers
Constitution Refit (Canon):
Type: Heavy Cruiser
Length: 305m
Mass: 1,000,000 metric tonnes
Crew: 300
Weapons: 18 phaser banks, 2 photon torpedo launchers
Defence: Deflector Shields and Defence Fields
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I would also like to point out that...
a. Reliant's pulse phaser batteries, like most pulse phasers seen so far, were really brutal and strong...
b. The enterprise may have had more phaser banks, but really... Its lack of two aft torpedo bays was pretty sad. Thus, I think the reliant had a much better coverage config.
c. With the constitution design... I dont imagine the ship would be half as easy to upgrade as the Miranda class, as I already explained.
So yes....
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What I don't get is that the TOS Connie has at least 6 torpedo launchers. Why downgrade to 2?
I don't think that the age of the connie had anything to do with the battle. It was pratically a brand new ship after the refit. The Connie's larger design most probibly means that a single hit can't cause as much damage because the systems would be more spread out. Also the connie would have a larger crew so that means more engineers and repair teams.
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Maybe the original Connie had smaller torpedo storage? And they sacrificed the launchers for storage?
Or maybe newer technology increased the size of the torpedo launchers?
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But even so, even if it did increase the size then why didn't they just leave TOS launchers on the aft? The only explination I can think of is that they changed the torpedos aswell.
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I would'nt put much faith in the ds9 tech manual,
it is infamous for being inaccurate.
Besides, i have never seen a Miranda fire Pulse Phasers.
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According to memory-alpha.org, the miranda has less phaser banks than the conny. The miranda is classified as a science and/or transport "wessel" as the conny a heavy cruiser. However, in ST:II the miranda was said to be of superior tactical importance. Plus it was modified to be a warship while the conny was sitting at the smithosian. By the stats, a conny could kik a miranda's hull-plated butt. But actions speak louder than words
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According to memory-alpha.org, the miranda has less phaser banks than the conny. The miranda is classified as a science and/or transport "wessel" as the conny a heavy cruiser. However, in ST:II the miranda was said to be of superior tactical importance. Plus it was modified to be a warship while the conny was sitting at the smithosian. By the stats, a conny could kik a miranda's hull-plated butt. But actions speak louder than words
You may want to re-read that article. There are several variants of the Miranda-Class, among them the Lantree-type, the Brattain-type and of course the famous Reliant-type.
While the Lantree and Brattain may have been retrofitted to be science/transport vessels the Reliant or for that matter the Saratoga and the Sitak/Majestic were not.
Plus, it stands to reason the Reliant held herself pretty well against the Connie. We can disregard the battle in the Mutara Nebula, tho, since both ships were unshielded and Khan at a tactical disadvantage.