Bridge Commander Central
Recreational Forums => Trek Discussion => Films & Shows => Topic started by: Cube on October 20, 2012, 04:28:42 PM
-
Like with everything, there are always changes things that people would like to be different. And I don't mean big changes, but more ones that would barely affect the plot or the episode/film in general.
I've just re-watched First Contact (I'm watching all of DS9 for the first time, the uniforms have just changed so I thought it was a good time for watch the FC Blu-Ray) and I was thinking about how nice it would have been to have at least one other cast member from DS9 beamed over from the Defiant. While I would think having most of the cast (especially Sisko) would require the script to be altered vastly, there was another person they could have placed on the Defiant: Miles O'Brien.
I also think that the scene where Picard is telling a random officer (Googling suggests his name is Lt Daniels) to "use hand-to-hand combat if you have to" would be the perfect scene to put him into (along with replacing the random Defiant officer during the battle), replacing Lt Daniels, who has a head injury and is bleeding. It would have been nice for the following reasons:
1. O'Brien is a great character, and is pretty popular.
2. He was a regular on The Next Generation.
3. Two main DS9 characters would have been on the Defiant.
4. Being told to pretty much "fight the Borg with your bare hands" while bleeding from a head injury would have been a great nod to the "torture O'Brien" episodes.
While this wouldn't have really changed the film at all, it would have just been....nice.
-
Yep, that'd been good, but probably cost substantially more
-
And would've really interrupted DS9's schedule. That's the big thing and why I think they only had Worf even though it makes no sense for him to be the ONLY character actually from the show on the Defiant. I suppose it can be argued that Sisko would not have been given the assignment due to possible conflict of interest, but why no O'Brien? Someone's gotta keep that ship running right. Or Bashir? Gotta have a doctor going into battle.
-
I never have really understood where the Battle of Sector 001 fits in the whole timeline....
-
Somewhere around season 6 maybe ?
-
Somewhere around season 6 maybe ?
The end of Season 5 (DS9) is also the beginning of the Dominion War. The events of First Contact clearly take place before the Dominion War. If we go by what most sources indicate as years, then Season 5 would be 2373 (same year as First Contact), while the war lasted between late 2373 and 2375. Insurrection takes place in 2375 at the end of the war (Riker mentioned "Dominion negotiations" and Picard mentions both losses to the Borg and Dominion).
DS9 Season 1 (same time-period as TNG Season 6)
DS9 Season 2 (same time-period as TNG Season 7)
DS9 Season 3 (same time-period as VOY Season 1) (Generations)
DS9 Season 4 (same time-period as VOY Season 2) (DS9's 'Way of the Warrior' mentions the recent destruction of the Enterprise-D)
DS9 Season 5 (same time-period as VOY Season 3) (First Contact)
DS9 Season 6 (same time-period as VOY Season 4) (VOY's 'Message in a Bottle' mentions the Dominion, and Romulans "not yet involved")
DS9 Season 7 (same time-period as VOY Season 5) (Insurrection)
-
If i remeber correctly, in one episode from ds9 was a reference to First Contact. Just cant remember which one...
-
Why does everyone assume "Dominion negotiations" means the war is over?
-
Found the reference to First Contact:
In Purgatory's Shadow
Another thing i would change:
At the end of Nemesis, the enterprise was supposed to be heavily refited. Shame they didn't do it.
-
Why does everyone assume "Dominion negotiations" means the war is over?
I didn't say that. Thou I have seen DS9 repeatedly, and I don't recall a whole lot of "negotiating" other than at the END of the war.
-
I didn't say that. Thou I have seen DS9 repeatedly, and I don't recall a whole lot of "negotiating" other than at the END of the war.
Perhaps that may be so, but here's a reason why Insurrection doesn't occur after the war's conclusion. "I'm going to ask Worf to delay his return to DS9 so that he can join us."-Picard
After the war ended, Worf went to Q'onos as Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire.
-
That really doesn't mean a thing. For all we know, Worf may have been headed towards DS9 first, before heading back to Q'onos. And if you wanna dissect the movie;
Worf: Captain.
Picard: Mr. Worf.
Beverly: Worf.
Picard: What the hell are you doing here?
Worf: I was at the Manzar colony when...
Now, setting aside the fact that we had ZERO mention of "Manzar colony" anywhere in Star Trek, prior to it's mention in Insurrection... What was Worf doing at this colony in the first place? Was he there as "Strategic Operations Officer" ? (unlikely, since the colony was likely close to the Ba'ku system which is quite some distance from DS9). Or was he there as "Ambassador to Q'onos" ? Neither of these questions can be answered, since they weren't revealed in any of the movies, or in the show.
Ever since seeing Insurrection, and DS9, i've had my assumptions about the "timeline" of the events surrounding the Dominion War. Unless otherwise proven, i'll stick with my assumptions. Insurrection also commented on that the So'na were producers of the narcotic, Ketracel White. A key commodity that is NECESSARY for the survival of the Jem'Hadar. As Troi rightly pointed out, why would the Federation be dealing with the So'na, who in turn are either helping, or helped the Dominion? If they are currently helping the Dominion, the Federation wouldn't be actively seeking an alliance with the So'na. On the other hand, if the war is over, the Federation would want all the allies it could get. (as even Picard mentioned, regarding the new species that Picard and his crew were hosting)
Finally, in Star Trek Nemesis, they made it perfectly clear it was well after the Dominion War, especially in regards to Remans being used as "cannonfodder".
-
I recall a line in insurrection that places it not long after the dominion war. Just before the scene with the diplomatic dinner picard says something about them being able to do the job they signed up for (exploring and what not).
-
Rapture was the first episode of DS9 that featured FC uniforms. It was released on December 30th of 1996, a month after First Contact. The Dominion War began half a season later, in June of '96.
Insurrection hit theaters in December of '98. Deep Space Nine (and the Dominion War arc) ended six months later.
Thus the commonly accepted dates of:
FC - 2373
Dominion War - Late 2373 to 2375
Insurrection - 2375
...match both on-screen evidence and production dates.
-
As hot as the Trill is in Insurrection, I'd have preferred that they had kept Barclay in as was the original plan. Maybe it was that Dwight was unavailable, but it would have been great to see him finally at a bridge station.
-
Anybody read FC early script? Geordi La Forge (i think) gets injured and gets taken to a hospital in a city.
And the battle against the cube was a lot longer.
I'd like to see that.
And I'd like to see more of the hot trill in insurrection.
-
Name's Kell Perim (http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Kell_Perim).
-
Isn't she the the only navigaton officer in the TNG films to not be killed off?
-
Isn't she the the only navigaton officer in the TNG films to not be killed off?
Unfortunately, she was on the ops console.
-
Another thing to check as far as dates...is the Stardate during the films...
For those who don't know...
4-supposed to represent the century they're in...late 24th
1-season
000-999-just some random number picked out
.4 the time of day.
Star Trek First Contact the Stardate was 50893.5 (3 years after TNG's "All Good Things")
Star Trek Insurrection estimated somewhere around 52200 (5 years after All Good Things)
That would put Insurrection around the 6th season of DS9.
However, what i would have loved to see in the movie...a Tie-in in what the hell happened before Nemesis...and I don't mean the A Time To series that Pocket Books put out a while back ;)
-
Star Trek Generations: 48650.1 (August 26, 2371, Time: 06:52:33)
DS9 episode 'Way of the Warrior': 49011.4 (January 5, 2372, Time: 04:08:15)
DS9 episode 'The Darkness and the Light': 50416.2 (June 1, 2373, Time: 21:54:43)
Star Trek First Contact: 50893.5 (November 23, 2373, Time: 03:03:35)
DS9 episode 'Call to Arms': 50975.2 (December 22, 2373, Time: 22:45:07)
VOY episode 'Message in a Bottle': 51462 (June 18, 2374, Time: 15:07:12)
DS9 episode 'In the Pale Moonlight': 51721.3 (September 21, 2374, Time: 06:35:16)
DS9 episode 'The Dogs of War': 52861.3 (November 11, 2375, Time: 08:59:16)
----- Star Trek Insurrection: Stardate Unknown (Date Unknown) -----
VOY episode 'Endgame' 54973.4 (December 22, 2377, Time: 06:59:02)
Star Trek Nemesis: 56844.9 (November 5, 2379, Time: 09:19:26)
Now let me break these references down chronologically;
- Generations depicted the destruction of the Enterprise-D and the death of James Tiberius Kirk.
- Way of the Warrior takes place roughly 6 months after Generations, and Lt Commander Worf joins the crew of Deep Space Nine.
- The Darkness and the Light was the first episode following 'Rapture' that displayed or mentioned a Stardate, while Rapture was the first episode to show the new style uniforms.
- First Contact, mentions the new "Enterprise-E" having been out in space for a year. It is therefore assumed that the new "Sovereign Class" was launched shortly after 'Generations'.
- Call to Arms was the first episode of outright hostilities between the Federation and the Dominion, and the official start of the "Dominion War".
- Message in a Bottle shows the experimental "Prometheus Class" as well as mentioning that "The Romulans have not yet joined in our fight with the Dominion".
- In the Pale Moonlight, Sisko briefs the viewer on a recent incident describing how he and Garak managed to trick the Romulans into joining the war effort against the Dominion.
- The Dogs of War is the episode immediately preceeding the DS9 series finale, and the last to show a stardate on that series.
- Endgame features Voyager's "triumphant return" to Earth, which eventually leads into...
- Nemesis, which shows "Admiral Janeway" ordering Picard to Romulus, and the eventual reassignment of several of the Enterprise-E senior officers, most notably Riker and Troi.
'Star Trek Insurrection' is the only feature length film not to include a Stardate reference. As such it's difficult to pin-point when the movie takes place in the timeline, other than Riker's reference to the Diplomatic Corps being involved in Dominion negotiations. The only such negotiation seen on the show was during the peak of the Dominion War, following the Cardassians withdrawal from occupying Deep Space Nine. And that "negotiation" took place on Deep Space Nine, with little (if any) involvement by the Federation Diplomatic Corps. Other than that, there may have been some form of negotiations involving the "Female Founder"'s surrender, and the official end of the war in 'What You Leave Behind'.
I have added a line to the most likely place in the timeline of when the events of 'Insurrection' may have taken place.
It should also be noted, that the stardates spanning between 'Generations' and 'Nemesis' roughly mirrors the time passing between the release of each movie (1994 and 2002 respectively).
Stardate Calculator Source: http://www.hillschmidt.de/gbr/sternenzeit.htm
-
Again, my problem with that placement of Insurrection is that Worf is specifically asked to delay a return to DEEP SPACE NINE. While I realize that Worf's eventual "fate" in the series had yet to be determined, those lines cannot be simply thrown out. Also, Picard's last bit to Anij makes specific notice that these are "perilous times for the Federation."
-
1. The Federation is fairly large. It's possible that Picard didn't know Worf had been made "Ambassador to Q'onos" and assumed he was still assigned to Deep Space Nine. Remember, Picard was surprised to see Worf, whereby Worf responded that he was at the "Manzar Colony". Assuming that the "Briar Patch" is the same as the one mentioned in ENT as "Klach D'Kel Brakt", it's reasonable to assume that the Enterprise was relatively near Klingon space.
2. "These are perilous times for the Federation", could just as easily mean that they've been through a terrible war, working on rebuilding the fleet, mounting a defense against a possible future attack from the Borg etc. It doesn't -need- to mean that the war is still ongoing.
-
DT: Insurrection was released in 1998 before the beginning of the 7th season of DS9....If the war REALLY had ended by Insurrection, I believe they would have mentioned this in DS9...don'tcha think? Or was Worf made Ambassador in the 6th season?
-
You are correct ofcourse. Which would mean that 'Insurrection' takes place in the 6th season of DS9, and the "Dominion negotiations" mentioned in the movie, are likely the very same as shown in 'Statistical Probabilities' (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Statistical_Probabilities_(episode) (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Statistical_Probabilities_(episode))). The wrinkle here on the other hand, is the fact that Worf is most definitely in the episode, while supposedly at the same time being on the Enterprise?!?
Truthfully, I don't think we'll ever truly -know- when Insurrection takes place. All we have, is guesswork.
-
Everytime I watch Nemesis I feel that there is something big missing. It would have been fitting if they had put Tomalak in Nemesis. Not replace Donatra but put him in a third ship and have it be a good ole D'deridex. Add five minutes to the battle and make Shinzon a bit more desperate.
-
Everytime I watch Nemesis I feel that there is something big missing. It would have been fitting if they had put Tomalak in Nemesis. Not replace Donatra but put him in a third ship and have it be a good ole D'deridex. Add five minutes to the battle and make Shinzon a bit more desperate.
Indeed, Sinzon was far to superior, not a Battle really.
-
Haha, after almost 2 pages finally back on topic.
Honestly, Insurrection and Nemesis were a mess, so much would need to be changed to fix those movies.
-
Out of curiosity then, what changes would you have done to 'Insurrection' ? I personally rather enjoyed the movie (moreso than previous odd-numbered movies). The one major inconsistency (which is inconsistent in every... single... TNG movie), was that Data apparently didn't "bring" his emotion chip with him to the Ba'ku planet.
In Generations, the chip is fused to his neural net and can't be removed.
In First Contact, the chip can be turned on/off at will.
In Insurrection, it apparently CAN be removed since Data didn't "bring it".
In Nemesis, no mention whatsoever other than his rather "emotional" response of self-sacrifice.
-
One inconsistency? ONE?! "I've never kissed you with a beard before!" That's a bald faced lie Deanna. Yes, one of those times you kissed him it was actually Thomas Riker, but the fact remains. Then there's the race of "We hate all machines" people. Well, those are some nicely tailored clothes for people who hate machines. Nice stone and metalworking too, didn't think forges and hand masonry were that good. Oh, and what's that? An irrigation system? Naw, it can't be, they hate machines! Oh wait, A DAM?! NAWWWWWWWWWW, they hate machines! Oh yes, and the cloaked Federation holoship doesn't violate any treaties with the Romulan Star Empire, not at ALL! And let's not forget the pivotal DRIVING point of the movie! The whole "Some of the darkest chapters of my world involved the forced relocation of a small group of people." argument. It's a nice sentiment Picard, it really is. And it would really hold up that you're standing up to your superiors IF YOU HADN'T DONE THIS SONG AND DANCE ALREADY AND MOVED THE POOR PEOPLE AGAINST THEIR WILL! "Journey's End" guys. Small group of Native Americans made a home, and Picard was completely going along with Starfleet orders to move them. And let's not forget, the metaphasic radiation could be used to help billions. Billions that were likely dying BECAUSE THE FEDERATION WAS LOSING A WAR! What's that thing the Vulcans are always saying? Oh yes. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Screw the Baku. Thanks to these glaring holes in logic(except the Riker beard part), I'm totally on the side of the bad guys here. In my opinion, Insurrection is right up there with The Final Frontier. It's blatantly stupid. That's why I never mentioned it in here, because MY changes would have involved a completely different story.
As for Nemesis, the one thing I would have changed would have been the very end. Seeing the Enterprise sitting broken in spacedock is not how the Next Gen deserved to go out. It should have gone out...well, like the last movie did. With Picard giving the order to set out once more and end with the Big-E going to warp.
-
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/Cyanide1700/zH-5yzT10UGB3apxT3u8Mg2.jpg)
:dontcare:
-
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/Cyanide1700/zH-5yzT10UGB3apxT3u8Mg2.jpg)
:dontcare:
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100224115927/memoryalpha/en/images/9/9b/USS_Enterprise-E_firing_quantum_torpedoes.jpg)
Granted.
-
Then there's the race of "We hate all machines" people. Well, those are some nicely tailored clothes for people who hate machines. Nice stone and metalworking too, didn't think forges and hand masonry were that good. Oh, and what's that? An irrigation system? Naw, it can't be, they hate machines! Oh wait, A DAM?! NAWWWWWWWWWW, they hate machines!
Uhm, he didn't say ALL technology, just modern TNG era technology like Warp etc. Of course they're going to have tools to build buildings, dams and even then, when you consider tailoring, you have to know that sewing machines at one point DIDN'T RUN ON ELECTRICITY, it was ran by a pedal that spun the needle up and down in order to sew. You can hate modern technology all you want, but you DON'T have to sacrifice tools that are pivotal to the survival of a species...gotta build houses to shelter your children right? Can't do that without hammers and nails. Got to have food in order to eat so yeah, Irrigation would be a Necessity, a dam in order to have a water supply would also be a necessity. You can do all that stuff without having cranes, welders, and other technologies that we use today to build these HUGE skyscrappers that we love and enjoy today. Plus, even with a hammer and nail you're doing physical labor ;) Which is the point the man was trying to make to begin with.
-
My point remains eclipse. None of that stuff looked like it was made by hand. I don't care how good these peoples' hand-eye coordination is to play CGI-ball, but everything in that village looked far too perfect. I know it was a set for a movie, but they didn't even try. So within the confines of the story, it's a village of hypocrites, though this is more the fault of the set designer. Also, don't forget this exchange:
PICARD: It is nothing personal, Data. You have to remember these people have rejected technology.
DATA: I am the personification of everything they have rejected.
PICARD: Until this week, that young man probably never saw a machine, let alone one that walks and talks.
And that still doesn't excuse the fact that Picard is standing his ground on something he went along with before or that the Federation COULD use the metaphasics research. Who knows how many lives this would have saved during the Dominion War and its aftermath.
-
So they're supposed to be living in caves and pretty much clothed in leaves??? GET REAL!!!
Also, don't forget this exchange:
PICARD: It is nothing personal, Data. You have to remember these people have rejected technology.
DATA: I am the personification of everything they have rejected.
PICARD: Until this week, that young man probably never saw a machine, let alone one that walks and talks.
EXACTLY MACHINES!!! MACHINES!!! You know, something like a computer, that is called a machine. A Can opener is a machine, your TV is a machine. What do you call a Hammer? It's only function is to slam into a nail and drive it into wood...would you call that a machine as well? Me? I just call that a tool.
However let's sit back and take a good look at our own culture...you say everything looked too perfect....well take a look at Rome and ancient societies....look at their cities (which IMO are flawless)...Were they built with cranes and machines??? No, logically they couldn't have been because stuff like that wasn't invented yet. So yeah, it's plausable that they built that city with their hands.
For the record I never said I disagreed with that stance on forced relocation....
Now enough on this and lets get back on topic
-
And that still doesn't excuse the fact that Picard is standing his ground on something he went along with before or that the Federation COULD use the metaphasics research. Who knows how many lives this would have saved during the Dominion War and its aftermath.
Yes, Picard went along with orders (Journey's End). He had objections to the orders, but he was fully intent on following through on them. BUT, he never actually relocated the Native Americans. Instead, a deal was reached in which the Indians on Dorvan V would remain on the Cardassian side of the border, and be under Cardassian rule. At the time, Cardassians agreed to leave the people alone. One would assume this agreement was eventually broken by looking at the existence of Chakotay. While it was never stated in the run of 'Voyager' what Chakotay's planet of origin was, the novels establish that his tribe was part of the Dorvan V colonists.
I think the reason Picard was more open to violating orders, was because he had been through the "song and dance" once before, and had no intention of doing it again.
As for the "perfectly tailored clothing" and what not, you do have to realize that people generally become apprentices, and remain as such for 30-40 years. Suffice it to say, they get alot of practice.
-
Small changes, eh? Two small changes for Nemesis. Should've had Frakes directing it, and a different writing crew.
(Berman shouldn't really write anything, ever. (IMHO))
-
Small changes, eh? Two small changes for Nemesis. Should've had Frakes directing it, and a different writing crew.
(Berman shouldn't really write anything, ever. (IMHO))
I actually liked Nemesis... Although I could live without the "Final battle in a place where all long-range comms are jammed" clich?...