Bridge Commander Central
Recreational Forums => Trek Discussion => Films & Shows => Topic started by: Daystar70 on June 03, 2010, 06:42:35 AM
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Why Ds9 was the best trek
Its unfortunate that as i talk to many fellow star trek fans among MY sto fleet and in zone in sto, i have come to realise that not ever fan has watched every series of star trek,and this includes my beloved DS9. Many fans have argued that the Dominion war was the antitheses of Gene Roddenberry's vision, I would argue that although that is technically true, it's because of that ironically,that makes the Dominion war work so well for the series and for star trek in general.
TOS was about hope for the future, that man would overcome its own fears and prejudice and come together as one world to then go out there and represent the best of that united world, and make friends with other worlds spreading our enlightened -cough cough push democracy- ways upon the less civilized worlds out there as well as allow them the wonderful benefit and opportunity to join our ranks and be like us.(hmm...)
TNG represented our golden age of arrogance and self righteous preaching just at the dawn of wolf359, which ironically as critic sfdebris very interestingly pointed out in his review of "Best of Both Worlds",had the same reaction in the fictional world of trek that the real USA did after post 911 long before the actual 911 happened. (life imitating art or visionary thinking?). That is actually the juice of my point- wolf 359 represented the idea that the complacency the federation enjoyed was now at risk of being destroyed, and that sometimes you can't solve every problem diplomatically. 39 ships lost was a sad moment..but earth alone took over 8 million losses to a Breen orbital bombardment in Ds9 near the end of the Dominion war, and that was just one of many losses.
Ds9 was Trek at its darkest,and again,it cannot be argued that that it was the counter proposition of what Roddenberry wanted in Trek, but rather than pretend it was,they used that as the exact nature of what we stood to lose,rather than glorify the war as an awesome "adventure"with lots of explosions as star wars does. No..Ds9 did not glorify the war,it used it as a platform to tell stories that showed the federation at its best,when it had the most to lose and stood on the brink of collapse.No more preaching about the prime directive,no more "oh no my telepathic mother is back on board" being the darkest thing to look forward to dealing with,the Best of Both worlds, while epic to this day,was a short lived threat. The Dominion war arc spanned 2 seasons before concluding with victory for the Federation and its allies.
So to any who have not seen it yet,or fully, WTF is wrong with you? go on youtube..it has most of it.
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Nope. TMP or TNG for me. DS9 was too slow, imo.
As for the whole wolf 359 and 9/11 similarities. ... It's neither of what you say. That's just like the whole Nostradamus thing. By this rationale, say Manhattan became a giant prison, would you then claim Escape from NY was visionary or life imitating art? Of course not. It was a mere coincidence. Both are about terrorist attacks and there's only two ways a human victim can really respond to such an action. Not to mention I'm sure there are people out there who would be offended by likening a tragedy to fiction but eh.
I don't get why you're poking at TNG being about making other races conform to us, and then trying to tell people they should like ds9 just because you do.
Anyway, that's my rant on the subject done.
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purists will argue this with you back, forth, up, down, right, left, and sideways. "first version only" is a common warcry for fandoms of all stripes, because most seqals and reboots suck due to being done for the money, not the fans.
i AM a "niner", btw. and i still haven't seen em all yet.
btw, interesting wild mass guess from another site: the phophets and Pa-wraiths are actually jedi and Sith respectivly :P
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i agree - DS9 was the best series IMO... the first few seasons were kinda lame (as with all shows) but i think it really started getting awesome with the introduction of the Dominion and especially when the Dominion War started up...
it is good to see the Federation getting their asses kicked and not always be the undamaged winners... and, it brought about a darkness, bleak feeling to the show... plus all the battle scenes and stuff getting torn up were just cool lol
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DS9 for me as well. Many thanks to Dax for that. :P
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I don't get why you're poking at TNG being about making other races conform to us, and then trying to tell people they should like ds9 just because you do.
To get a reaction from people like yourself and talk about something, and it worked. :evil:
But i COMPLETELY disagree with you anyways. I do believe the 9/11 analogy was correct. Starfleet broke its complacant stance and became more militant. Yes it probably is a natural reaction, but you missed the whole point. It Wasn't a "Nostradomus" like prediction it was the way the series and starfleet as before and after that was analyzed.
I am expressing an opinion not trying to "Make people" agree with me, get a clue Prime. Seriously.
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get a clue Prime. Seriously.
tone down the hostile attitude ok? Seriously.
Prime wasnt rude to you so you dont need to start being rude to him... he was expressing an opinion, as were you, so dont attack him personally...
moving on...
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Yeah your right i apologise. You know me, i can get a lil fiesty :hithead:
Upon further reflection .i feel really bad now. I sincerely do apologise prime. let me rephrase my comments to " i respectfully disagree" with you.
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I liked it, but it didn't feel very Trek to me like STO, STTNG, and STVOY (although I feel VOY tried combing elements of DS9, but tried keeping the previous style STness but failed unfortantly). I liked how they explored the human condition and how we interact with eachother, different races, how we hate and love. How we fight, but how we want the fighting to be over. It had great trek like episodes, like when Sisko was bouncing through time to his son. Another great episode is how they dragged the Romulans into the war.
Its a real shamed they ruined it with the last season, I mean really, they could have had the whole wormhole alien vs pa'rath(sp?) story arc, but they really really really needed to rewrite it. I mean they really screwed up the Gul Dukat character badly
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DS9 was the best trek of them all lol and if you really want to get into the show you can't just skim over a few eps you have to watch quite a few AND you got to pay attention closely there are lots of hidden subtleties and IMO it reflects the Federation better than any of the previous series.
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Yeah your right i apologise. You know me, i can get a lil fiesty :hithead:
Upon further reflection .i feel really bad now. I sincerely do apologise prime. let me rephrase my comments to " i respectfully disagree" with you.
no worries, id be a hypocrite if i said i didnt have my bitchy days lol
DS9 was the best trek of them all lol and if you really want to get into the show you can't just skim over a few eps you have to watch quite a few AND you got to pay attention closely there are lots of hidden subtleties and IMO it reflects the Federation better than any of the previous series.
i agree - tho i think it would be safe to skip over seasons 1 and 2 lol
but season 3 and on (when the dominion came about, just before the Defiant was introduced) then youd really need to watch all the eps to really get the deep feeling of it all... thats when the show really gets more dark and serious and even the "mighty" federation starts getting its ass kicked, and it has its very sad moments...
plus the battlescenes lol (again) best ever in any series...
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My favorite series focused on an immovable space station caught in the middle of an epic space war, parked next to a blue gateway from which ships kept comming from and whose commander turned out to be the prophet foretold by the ancient prophesies and brought peace to the sector.
I also really liked that small yet powerful ship that packed quite a punch. I believe it was called...
Whitestar.
:D/trolls
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funny how that fits with DS9 and both series were out at the same time lol :P
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I don't know why, but I would pick Babylon 5 over Ds9. :P
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I also really liked that small yet powerful ship that packed quite a punch. I believe it was called...
Whitestar.
ha ha thats funny. BUT there's a trivia behind that.
Ron Moore was not allowed to make the Defiant large because they were competing with themselves as voyager was about to launch, the Valient was the original name Moore chose but Berman said "ship can't start w a v" because of voyager. He obviously used the valient for the same titled later episode.
Yes..B5 was better than ds9 and star trelk IMO as an epic series but i liked Ds9 best of treks..my dad made a point yesterday at saying the only reason he couldnt get into ds9 was you had to follow all episodes or risk getting lost..a fair point.
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I like DS9 but I still wanna know why they had to kill Jadzia..... :cry:
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I like DS9 but I still wanna know why they had to kill Jadzia..... :cry:
Terry Farrell decided to leave the series to do Becker...
TNG was my favorite series, and I grew up watching Voyager, but I've been watching a lot of DS9 lately on DVD's and find it to be the most complex and well thought out out of all of them. I never saw DS9 until I was a teenager and Spike started airing re-runs, but now that I've seen it I'm a little pissed I didn't see that show when I was growing up like I did TNG & Voyager.
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Eh, I liked DS9, but I grew up on TNG...seriously, the first time I ever watched Star Trek was Encounter at Farpoint...when I was 4 LOL
DS9 had a great many episodes that kicked ass...I especially loved the fact that they went with destroying the Defiant. It proved that the heros don't always win.
I don't agree with this nonsense that DS9 went against Gene Roddenberry's vision...no, I could see the Great Bird doing a Trek Series like this...just to prove that there are still battles to be fought, wars that will rage...it's the very essence of life. You can't live life without some form of conflict...where would we learn?
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I grew up watching TNG and I remember all those years ago when DS9 began. I hated it to be honest and didn't watch it until TNG had finished. But when DS9 started I was 7 so I hated all the talking and politics.
It kicked off with me when the show recieved the Defiant and the stories had more action. Now as I've grown older and watched season 1 and 2 I like most of the stories and it's the same with Voyager, plus, like Nick Myers said when you re-watch the first few episodes after watching the entire run of the show you bring with you the characters back stories and they've more depth than they did when the show started and I think that enhances the viewing of the early episodes.
DS9 was a huge step forward for Star Trek and sci-fi, I think Trek is better off because of it. I can't say which is the best show out of the 5 live action ones as each as episodes, ships and characters I love.
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wow, you people are so young lol
i was 11 when TNG premiered but i didnt start watching it until about season 4 i think, and then went back and saw all the previous seasons...
i remember watching the very first episode of ds9 when it aired, i was at a friends house and we snuck some beers into the house; i was 16 at the time :P
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I was 12 when Voyager ended. So yeah, I'm a youngin lol.
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So was I Nero, I believe. When did Voyager end again?
DS9 is the only serious I've seen every episode of (I have not seen the last episode of TAS)
I was trying to watch Voyager from beginning to end but the network I was watching it on changed time slots when I was on vacation so i missed 2 weeks (10 episodes) of season 4 because the DVR didn't record.
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heh. i was 14 when next G premeired...on a brand new channel called FOX.
DS9 was the positive half of the spectrum. B5 was the Negative, showing greedy warmongering aliens (and that was us Humans!) two takes on "space jews", and since it involved Harlan Ellison, i considered it to be his revenge for them editing most of the drug references out of "city on the edge of forever"
don't believe that? he had his original script and rewrites published. it was very topical considering.
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So was I Nero, I believe. When did Voyager end again?
May 2001
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To me, and again this is someone who has watched every series, every movie, and over 95% of the episodes in most of the series (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT), I couldn't wait until DS9 was on the air. I was so glad to be there to watch the crew go through their ups and downs and it did tell stories that spoke to the human condition--even in some respects more than the rest of the series ever dared touched upon. On DS9 we got to see it all, war, religion, pain, love, loss, and hope. Me personally, I am a 9er and I will forever be. It took nearly three seasons for it to find it's place, but like TNG, that's when everything got better. With the addition of the Defiant (my #2 favorite ship), Worf in season 4 and the Dominion War, I think it not only made the series more solid, I think it made it more deep. Not only that, you had storylines in DS9 that you never saw on the earlier series (i.e. Dominion War, the Maquis, The Circle) just to name a few. We got to learn not only the good side of the Federation but it's darker side as well with the introduction of Section 31. I loved the fact that the Federation wasn't a perfect utopia that TNG made it out to be and one of the biggest episodes to make this point was the 2 part episode in season 4, 'Homefront' and 'Paradise Lost'.
But DS9 would be nothing without the characters and the large base of recurring characters that people came back week after week to watch for. The thing is, I in a way, owe DS9 a debt of gratitude. If it weren't for that show, I wouldn't be so interested in BC, doing fan fiction, or still love Star Trek as much as I do after over twenty years of watching it on TV. So, that is in a nutshell is why I think DS9 is the best Trek of them all.
Not to say that there's not a bad point in the show or two... But it is my favorite in my humble opinion.
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I pretty much agree with everything you just said, ThunderChyld :)
My experience with Star Trek, started when I was 5 years old and started watching TNG. For a long time, I avoided watching DS9 simply because I fond it to be too boring at the time (set on a space station, bunch of religious mumbo jumbo...). But eventually I really got into the show, re-watched every episode from the 1st one, and to date it's the best of the 5 television shows in my opinion. On a close 2nd for me, is TNG, with a shared 3rd place for TOS, ENT and VOY. (all 3 of the latter shows had their good and bad points). And ofcourse, TOS is the show that started it all. Without TOS, we'd have no Trek at all.
Hands down, best Star Trek episode ever... The Visitor (DS9, season 4). No other episode of Star Trek's over 800 episodes has made me as happy or as sad as this episode. Coming off of a high point, with the Way of the Warrior (season 4's season premiere), this was by far the best episode in my humble opinion.
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I might be the youngest guy here, 17. I hope so. :angel
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I personally think "In the Pale Moonlight" is probably not just one of DS9's best, but one the entire Star Trek franchises best. There are no space battles, just a whole lot of talking and dirty politics, but the way the episode is set up and the direction of the plot is what makes it such a great offering.
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Gotta agree w "pale moo nlight" this post i made as copied and pasted from one i made in the Jupiterforce fleet forums and everyone kept tossing pale moonlight clips from youtube so here is the same curtosy here
BUT Thunder i will say this- The Visitor was a close second for me i just rewatched it.
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I don't agree with this nonsense that DS9 went against Gene Roddenberry's vision...no, I could see the Great Bird doing a Trek Series like this...just to prove that there are still battles to be fought, wars that will rage...it's the very essence of life. You can't live life without some form of conflict...where would we learn?
You can disagree but the fact of the matter is it WAS against roddenberry's vision he said over and over WAR wwill; NEVeR happen on Trek, he was so opposed to anything Militant about trek he even tried to get the wrath of khan red jacket uniforms changed. No..Ds9 would have been a huge huge NEVER had great bird had a say.
Everyone is entitled to an "opinion" but your Not entitled to a fact. Roddenberry's quotes are on record and he fought venomously against even the script of Wrath of Khan.
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Roddenberry's ideals were great ideals but I think every writer who wrote for Star Trek will tell you how much they limited story telling. Ron Moore often spoke out against certain ideals as they just didn't work.
DS9 was bold and fresh because it went against the grain. Characters who didn't get on, not every episode ending on a happy note, no inspiring Picard like speeches, and a Cold War that became a the biggest war in Federation history.
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I might be the youngest guy here, 17. I hope so. :angel
Nope Dalek has you beat by a few years.
And the best series is TOS, the others are good in there own right but are pale copies to the original TOS-R has help bring them up to the production standard the newer shows have but the series had far more heart. Least us forget the genesis of the phenomenon that is Star Trek.
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I might be the youngest guy here, 17. I hope so. :angel
You should know that. Remember, you thought I was 23 last year. :P
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I realise i have not shared my age/story. I am 39 years old, I was 14 a sophomore in high school the fall of 1987 hen TNG premiered. I will never forget the hype leading up to "Encounter at farpoint" and me and my dad never missed an episode. I loved Ds9 from day one, moment one, the opening battle of wolf 359 as haunting and epic. I hated voyager with a passion that goes beyond words, though i LOVED 7 of 9 the moment she stepped sexily onto the ship. LOVED Enterprise as well though it to,like all But the TOS took 3rd season to "find its feet".
I have to partially agree TOS being the best but not quite. It's okay not to like a franchises original, just because trek wouldn't exist without TOS doesn't automatically make it the "best" no matter how devoted a fan you are, you would be not being fair to everyone to be blind to its faults, after all, thats like saying you like your wife's parents "better" because they're responsible for her existance. IT doesn't work that way.
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I'm only a few years behind you at 35 and loved trek from day one ( though till 1983 star wars was my first love). I remember going to the video shop and renting Encounter at Farpoint (it would be 12 months before we got in on TV in the UK). And to be honest I was not blown away until the season 3 cliff hanger Best of Both worlds, then I was hooked.
DS9 bored me till season 4 then I only caught it when there was nothing else on ( I have not seen every episode from way of the warrior onwards). And Never really got into Voyager, though I'd watch it if nothing else on.
I really liked Enterprise and was sad to see it go as I felt it had found it's feet. But I never missed a repeat of the classic show and though it lost its way in the 3rd season (With a few exception episodes) the first 2 seasons are stand out TV.
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I'm only a few years behind you at 35
and im right behind at 34 lol glad to see im not the only one in the "dirty-thirties" era :D :P
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You can disagree but the fact of the matter is it WAS against roddenberry's vision he said over and over WAR wwill; NEVeR happen on Trek, he was so opposed to anything Militant about trek he even tried to get the wrath of khan red jacket uniforms changed. No..Ds9 would have been a huge huge NEVER had great bird had a say.
Everyone is entitled to an "opinion" but your Not entitled to a fact. Roddenberry's quotes are on record and he fought venomously against even the script of Wrath of Khan.
And you're making assumptions that I've read this :P Had I known this earlier (or even all along) I may not have said anything. :)
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You should know that. Remember, you thought I was 23 last year. :P
I forgot, haven't been active, remember? :P
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And you're making assumptions that I've read this cheeky Had I known this earlier (or even all along) I may not have said anything. smile
LoL well true but i kinda had to make a point i felt but that' s cool. :yay:
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I realise i have not shared my age/story. I am 39 years old, I was 14 a sophomore in high school the fall of 1987 hen TNG premiered.
I'm afraid, your math does not compute :P
If you are 39 years old now, and you were 14 when TNG premiered... that would assume TNG premiered 25 years ago, when in fact it premiered 23 years ago. So either you were 16 when it premiered, or you are now 37 years old :)
Okay, back on topic... In the Pale Moonlight was a great episode as well. For me, i'd say it gets a close 2nd behind The Visitor.
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If you are 39 years old now, and you were 14 when TNG premiered... that would assume TNG premiered 25 years ago, when in fact it premiered 23 years ago. So either you were 16 when it premiered, or you are now 37 years old :)
nobody likes a nitpicker, DT lol j/k :P
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LOL actually no i don't mind his nitpick i was always terrible at math yes i was 16.
I was born oct 2nd 1970. When TNG appeared i was 16 about to turn 17. to be more specific.
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well, at least I'm not the old fogey in here...just the #2 old fogey...I THINK.
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Well us 30 somethings trekkies are the Next Generation.
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I pretty much agree with everything you just said, ThunderChyld :)
My experience with Star Trek, started when I was 5 years old and started watching TNG. For a long time, I avoided watching DS9 simply because I fond it to be too boring at the time (set on a space station, bunch of religious mumbo jumbo...). But eventually I really got into the show, re-watched every episode from the 1st one, and to date it's the best of the 5 television shows in my opinion. On a close 2nd for me, is TNG, with a shared 3rd place for TOS, ENT and VOY. (all 3 of the latter shows had their good and bad points). And ofcourse, TOS is the show that started it all. Without TOS, we'd have no Trek at all.
Hands down, best Star Trek episode ever... The Visitor (DS9, season 4). No other episode of Star Trek's over 800 episodes has made me as happy or as sad as this episode. Coming off of a high point, with the Way of the Warrior (season 4's season premiere), this was by far the best episode in my humble opinion.
The Visitor was one of the best of Trek... I COMPLETELY Agree! That one (I'll admit it) made me cry and it had all of the best elements that Trek was based upon. That has been so consistently been on my top 10 list of favorite episodes of any show. The Siege of AR-558 was another one that was a good one because it showed what the Federation needed to do to hold the line against the Jem'Hadar in it's most gritty iteration done. Like Sisko said on Behind the Lines, "It shows that we will fight and keep on fighting until we cannot fight any more!" Another episode that got me was the episode when O'Brien was imprisoned and had to live out a sentence in his mind, and he struggled to the point of almost committing suicide. Bashir had to talk him down in season 4--Hard Time.
Not to mention that they had great episodes like Trials and Tribblelations and the Season 5 finale A Call to Arms, leading into Season 6 with A Time to Stand, Rocks and Shoals, Sons and Daughters, Behind the Lines, Favor the Bold and Sacrifice of Angels. I loved Waltz, The Reckoning, In the Pale Moonlight (another of my top 10), His Way, The Sound of Her Voice, and Tears of the Prophets. Now I know I just listed a lot of the good ones... But there are more scattered about the series that I would watch over and over again... But I think between these and several others, this is what made DS9 what it is--one of the best series of Trek ever.
--ThunderChyld
And an unusual side effect, my love for Nebula-Class ships grew during this time. Not only that--after reading the novelization of the DS9 side of the Dominion War by Diane Carey--it added additional depth to all of the characters participating in it and made me appreciate the episodes even more.
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You know..i've spent the last 3 months only posting on the STO thread..i'm so glad i woke up and branched out. This community is great.
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The Visitor was one of the best of Trek... I COMPLETELY Agree! That one (I'll admit it) made me cry and it had all of the best elements that Trek was based upon. That has been so consistently been on my top 10 list of favorite episodes of any show. The Siege of AR-558 was another one that was a good one because it showed what the Federation needed to do to hold the line against the Jem'Hadar in it's most gritty iteration done. Like Sisko said on Behind the Lines, "It shows that we will fight and keep on fighting until we cannot fight any more!" Another episode that got me was the episode when O'Brien was imprisoned and had to live out a sentence in his mind, and he struggled to the point of almost committing suicide. Bashir had to talk him down in season 4--Hard Time.
Not to mention that they had great episodes like Trials and Tribblelations and the Season 5 finale A Call to Arms, leading into Season 6 with A Time to Stand, Rocks and Shoals, Sons and Daughters, Behind the Lines, Favor the Bold and Sacrifice of Angels. I loved Waltz, The Reckoning, In the Pale Moonlight (another of my top 10), His Way, The Sound of Her Voice, and Tears of the Prophets. Now I know I just listed a lot of the good ones... But there are more scattered about the series that I would watch over and over again... But I think between these and several others, this is what made DS9 what it is--one of the best series of Trek ever.
--ThunderChyld
And an unusual side effect, my love for Nebula-Class ships grew during this time. Not only that--after reading the novelization of the DS9 side of the Dominion War by Diane Carey--it added additional depth to all of the characters participating in it and made me appreciate the episodes even more.
Took it out of my mouth... though you forgot Take Me Out To The Holosuite!
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it was best ever coz of the Dominion war
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it was best ever coz of the Dominion war
What a suprise from a Babyon 5 fan... :funny j/k
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Tng was peaceful.. Walking in those beige corridors. Everyone was happy! Utopia! But sometimes it was too... also when there was a war coming (redemption, borg). Always old big, barbeque admirals, that could be your neighboorman saying: jean luc! We are not ready for war! It was like, d'ooh....
Then ds9 came, and the intro was for me already enough.. THe music, the fast shooting Saratoga, the one shot exploding melbourne. It was like damn! Also, it really showed the big redress of the Federation, which i liked. Humans who were peaceful, that started to change into more "you started a war with us, you are going down with it.." was amazing imo. Especially, the end of season 5, when you see the taskforce of the federation. It was like, holy shit! I mean, i was watching this with some friends, and i do remember that we all laughed and said, "we are gonna see max ten ships, a constellation, a miranda and some excelsiors".. Suddenly bam, akira's, defiants, excelsiors, lots of galaxy class ships.. The feds really started pumping ships.. Favor the bold episode was also amazing, where the federation decides to go alone.. Really, pfew, no one believes, this is the same federation of tng..
Voyager was imo also great, but i hated those holodeck episodes (fair heaven crap).
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I just had an amazing experience with DS9.
My brother's on break so he came and visited me for a few days, completely unexpectedly. I was surprised (and grateful) because I don't get to see him that often, and he has a lot of work on top of school (Model UN president, three IT jobs, prepping to go to London to study at LSE, etc.) so he really had to make an effort to get away for a few days. I made dinner and we sat around talking and we were going to play tennis (I have some nice courts right down the street) but he decided he was too tired...so I put The Visitor on Netflix and we watched it...my brother's not a huge Trekkie but he likes it, he's seen most of the movies but never really gotten that in to the shows...and by the end he was in tears. I have literally never seen him cry, this night really touched both of us. Anyways just thought I'd share that.
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The Visitor is one of my favorite episodes of Trek. Period.