Bridge Commander Central
BC Forums => BC General => Topic started by: PMCG99 on January 02, 2011, 02:39:52 PM
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a while back i had an idea. An idea for the tholian web mod. In theory it is possible but i need help. people who are very good AI scripters and modders. How the web will work: Tholian ships will eject special probes that will shoot at the closest probe with beam weapons that do heavy damage. the probes will have to be made invincible via Foudation Tech (which i can do). I can design the probes. Better scripters can make the ai files. if you want to help post here. We have room for scripters, betatesters And Experianced Modders. Hopefully this project will be a sucsess! Anybody who helps will be credited in the readme. Also anybody who has any ideas on how to improve it please tell me.
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I'm not entirely sure this is possible. for one thing, you would have to figure out how to get the AI to shoot at friendly probes, and maintain fire continuously, and I'm not entirely sure that you can be damaged by intersecting a beam weapon fired at another target in game. Also you'll need to consider the huge graphical drain this will be with all the beams firing, even for a small net thats dozens of beams.
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You can be damaged by a beam fired at another target. i know because it has happend to me multiple times. make the probes enemies and modify the AI files so they only fire at other probes. and i have made phasers that fire infinitely. also if the probes were the webspinner's enemy the trapped ship would not try to fire at the web probes. which is cannon because ships in a web cant fire wepons.
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Honestly that's not the best approach to do the Tholian Web for various reasons. There was a guy called Mesh IIRC back in '06 or '07 who approached me with an alternate idea. In short make a sphere, alpha channel the textures and voila you've got the web + use the DS9FX wormhole effect. However I never got around in scripting it.
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You can be damaged by a beam fired at another target. i know because it has happend to me multiple times. make the probes enemies and modify the AI files so they only fire at other probes. and i have made phasers that fire infinitely. also if the probes were the webspinner's enemy the trapped ship would not try to fire at the web probes. which is cannon because ships in a web cant fire wepons.
I don't think you quite understood part one of my points, the probes would not be able to fire at one another if they are all on the same side. IIRC, AI cannot commit fratricide. Sov's idea is probably easier.
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I don't think you quite understood part one of my points, the probes would not be able to fire at one another if they are all on the same side. IIRC, AI cannot commit fratricide. Sov's idea is probably easier.
Yes it can, you just need to tell it what the target group is or pass on to the AI a list of "enemy" names.
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Honestly that's not the best approach to do the Tholian Web for various reasons. There was a guy called Mesh IIRC back in '06 or '07 who approached me with an alternate idea. In short make a sphere, alpha channel the textures and voila you've got the web + use the DS9FX wormhole effect. However I never got around in scripting it.
Wow! Never thought about that! But I never could figure out how to use the DS9fx Wormhole Scripts. By the way I wanted to use my idea because i thought it would be the most canon approach. :newbie:
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Either way will work, however the idea you have might drain the system a bit.
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Well do u wanna help? You are an extremley good scripter and i would love to have your help.
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As a Software Developer free time is a luxury for me. I made an announcement a while back that I don't have time for this anymore.
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Sorry... I completly understand.
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Sovereign has a point about system resources, but I don't think that's insurmountable.
For example, your phaser-ships needn't be probes. You could use those single polygon invisi-ships that screenshot artists use. Lurok91 and I were discussing a similar idea in his Mutara Sector thread. They would be much more resource-friendly.
I think the hardest part is going to be the flocking behaviour, to get them to surround a ship in a geometric formation. If you manage to tackle that, it could probably be adapted and applied to fleet formations, too. It could come in very handy.
One suggestion realting to that is that, to immobilise the target ship, one (let's call them nodes) node is armed not with the thread phasers, but with a weapon similar to the Breen Energy Dampening weapon, it would shoot the target ship every once in a while to keep it from moving. The weapon should be silent and invisible.
I actually think this is a great idea, I think it was had before, but that was a few years ago, and things have since been done in the game that were then thought impossible (wormholes, for instance ;)). The biggest stumbling block, as I say, is the positioning AI.
Unfortunately, I'm not much of a scripter, so I can't help you there.
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I think the hardest part is going to be the flocking behaviour, to get them to surround a ship in a geometric formation. If you manage to tackle that, it could probably be adapted and applied to fleet formations, too. It could come in very handy.
isn't something like this accomplished already by the Nem random phaser fire in KM?
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Good point!
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Sovereign has a point about system resources, but I don't think that's insurmountable.
For example, your phaser-ships needn't be probes. You could use those single polygon invisi-ships that screenshot artists use. Lurok91 and I were discussing a similar idea in his Mutara Sector thread. They would be much more resource-friendly.
I think the hardest part is going to be the flocking behaviour, to get them to surround a ship in a geometric formation. If you manage to tackle that, it could probably be adapted and applied to fleet formations, too. It could come in very handy.
One suggestion realting to that is that, to immobilise the target ship, one (let's call them nodes) node is armed not with the thread phasers, but with a weapon similar to the Breen Energy Dampening weapon, it would shoot the target ship every once in a while to keep it from moving. The weapon should be silent and invisible.
I actually think this is a great idea, I think it was had before, but that was a few years ago, and things have since been done in the game that were then thought impossible (wormholes, for instance ;)). The biggest stumbling block, as I say, is the positioning AI.
Unfortunately, I'm not much of a scripter, so I can't help you there.
Very good! Never thought about that! and single poly nodes would'nt be as much of a drain on a computer!
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This can be hard to do but it can work, why you don't make a new AI script what i'm saying is to "grab" the "structure" of the AI script and adapt it to a new AI script one script that could actually do that, i'm not the best with script but this maybe actually work of course that this is super hard to do but with you modelling it to a new script you maybe can put this probe firing thing or like Bren said use that single polygon invisi-ships.
It's okay if this idea just don't work it's just something that went through my mind :D.
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make a new AI script
ya, thats damn near impossible lol
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ya, thats damn near impossible lol
But it can work, which better ideas do you have cuz' i think that this tholian web it's a bit crazy ecuse on the download part this should be really heavy.
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do you know much about creating a whole new AI for BC?
i hate to point out the obvious, but if this idea wasn't very difficult to create, it would have been done already... this isnt the first time this idea was brought up in the last 8 years of BC, and it hasnt been done yet because of the extremely difficult and time-consuming process it would be to do - it isnt an easy thing at all...
and only the elite-most scripters could have possibly done it, but it was never taken on for a reason...
actually - a few years back, USS Sovereign almost picked up the project, but because of the major task and other things going on, it wasnt done... and he is too busy with real life (as mentioned before) to do it now...
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But it can work, which better ideas do you have cuz' i think that this tholian web it's a bit crazy ecuse on the download part this should be really heavy.
Well you said that you don't know anything about scripting, didn't you? How possibly then can you claim that it would work?
For a start I do recommend you to go to python.org and download IDLE, download BCSDK from bcfiles and start learning.
Problem with BC's AI system is that it's not very bright or modular. You can make some AI's pretty neat BUT for most of this you'd need a background correction script which corrects the behavior and the positioning of the AI and whatnot. While it is possible it is *very* (to say the least) difficult to achieve.
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Well you said that you don't know anything about scripting, didn't you? How possibly then can you claim that it would work?
For a start I do recommend you to go to python.org and download IDLE, download BCSDK from bcfiles and start learning.
Problem with BC's AI system is that it's not very bright or modular. You can make some AI's pretty neat BUT for most of this you'd need a background correction script which corrects the behavior and the positioning of the AI and whatnot. While it is possible it is *very* (to say the least) difficult to achieve.
So what can be done to make the tholian web work??? It doesn't have anything that can make some kind of a mirror to reflect the phaser fire it only needs to give a direction to the mirror and the it should work, ok that this needs a lot of things but this can't be hard as making a total new AI script.
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No Deja vu please...I don't want to go through that again.
I already explained.
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But not impossible. And the ds9fx wormhole wasn't "Possible" Either. And For the record i know A lot about bc scripting. Just not AI Scripting.
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wow you guys just arent getting it lol
ok you know what - please by all means take a stab at it... i truly hope you guys are successful - best of luck :)
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But not impossible.
I did say that it was possible but incredibly difficult to achieve.
And the ds9fx wormhole wasn't "Possible" Either.
And the whole concept of DS9FX's wormhole took me about a year to complete.
And For the record i know A lot about bc scripting. Just not AI Scripting.
Are you in the Software Development industry? Have you ever released a scripted mod for Bridge Commander or done one?
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wow you guys just arent getting it lol
ok you know what - please by all means take a stab at it... i truly hope you guys are successful - best of luck :)
Just to second that: I've done a tiny bit of scripting (thanks to Sov's help) and trust me, it's not easy. Not impossible, but not as easy as you might think or as it looks on paper.
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Are you in the Software Development industry? Have you ever released a scripted mod for Bridge Commander or done one?
No I have not realesed any of my mods. But i have made some awesome mods. Already HPed And ready to go.
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wow you guys just arent getting it lol
ok you know what - please by all means take a stab at it... i truly hope you guys are successful - best of luck :)
Look i don't want to force anything i just think that was a good idea this whole thing of the web and i have just writed a lot's of ideas that i think that could work but i didn't know that was such a hard thing to do.
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i understand...
i guess the point had been made much earlier in this convo just how extremely difficult it would be to make a mod like this, even with one of BC's elite-most scripters saying that, yet that fact just doesnt seem to be accepted lol
it's like we don't know what we're talking about or at some points in the last 8 years every possible way has been explored already (especially when the BC had ten times as many modders and scripters as it does now, back in BCU days)...
it hasnt been done yet for a reason... ;)
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All the same, guys, Jimmy, USS Sovereign, let's not go beating the new blood down. There've been a few unorthodox approaches to tired old ideas that have born surprising fruit recently. And if there's one thing we should have learned after nearly 9 years modding this game, it's Never Say Never!
I think whoever made the point about the blind targetting was on to something. That mod can position those point ships precisely, relative to a host ship. Even if we just place the point ships in a sphere around the target ship and have them shoot each other a lot with yellow beams, that's a heck of a start.
And, with all due respect, Sov, I think it'd look better than an expanding textured sphere. Though an expanding textured sphere would be great for a core breach shockwave.
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I agree with Bren, people said many things weren't possible in BC, but recently they have become possible. Just look at the nebula Lurok is making. The AI would just have to be able to fire at the nearest micro-ship. They would move toward a certain point, the player ship. The beams would be very powerful, like Borg cutting beam strength, and the micro ships would be very powerful, the effect wears off when all micro ships have destroyed themselves.
The only thing it really requires (not counting HPing which many modders can do) is positioning (using the blind fire as a reference), GUI(To add a use button the the tactical menu), and AI(to get it firing at other micro-ships).
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Bren I don't recall pushing this textured sphere idea as you seem to make it sound. I only recall initially stating that it was suggested to me a long time ago and stating that it was much more feasible.
I shall repeat myself once more: BC's AI system has some cool features and some major drawbacks. To actually get this to work you WILL require a background correction script other than the AI which by itself will 95% guaranteed not work as imagined. This most likely will open a whole lot of new problems and things to fix. Nemesis random phaser fire does not use an AI also FYI and it pretty much generates random coordinates around a ship to create a firepoint. I am also familiar with the concept as I've used it also in the past as has former BCS-TNG scripter Wowbagger. So I do know what I'm talking about, unlike some of you. USS Frontier, when working on Galaxy Charts War Simulator had to reset the AI's every few seconds because it acted oddly and didn't work as it should have been, but that is another story and I'm getting tired of running in circles.
Some people obviously have to be learn some lessons the hard way. You want to try? Be my guest. Don't say I didn't warn you.
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and at this point - i think this thread's point has been served, a long time ago...
no one is beating the new blood down, we're just trying very hard to explain all we know of this concept, and all we've learned about it (because it has been brought up and attempted before), and the outcomes and experiences of before when this was attempted, and the past 8 years of how BC works in general...
it is a little bit frustrating when people seem like they just dont believe us, and continue to challenge the points...
is a tholian web possible in BC? sure anything is, i guess, at this point... would the project take a shitload of work, time, trial and error, commitment, as well as extreme knowledge and skill of scripting and other realms of BC? absolutely!
it would be an extremely difficult, complex, major project - with all those prerequisites...
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AI or no AI doesn't change things much. What the firepoint does is simply create and destroy invisible probes in a matter of seconds which are generated at random coordinates. You can even tell a specific phaser to fire without the usage of an AI. This code can be summed up to about couple of lines of code.
# pLoc = pShip.GetWorldLocation() # Get world location of the ship
# pLoc = pShip.GetWorldForwardTG() # Get forward
pLoc = pShip.pShip.GetWorldRightTG() # Get right
# Can't recall but I believe there was some additional math there also for XYZ's pLocation.GetX() + GetRandomNumber(500)
pFirepoint.SetTranslateXYZ(pLocation.GetX() + GetRandomNumber(500), pLocation.GetY() + GetRandomNumber(500), pLocation.GetY() + GetRandomNumber(500))
pFirepoint.UpdateNodeOnly()
# Get random number being a custom function
I can even allign it to a vector
pFirepoint.AlignToVectors(v1, v2)
But you need some additional math to position them in the correct locations.
Realistically looking the ship has got to be moving it cannot be standing still so what happens in that is that you lose the formation. Either approach will generate an ugly looking "animation":
1. Destroy the firepoints and recreate them which cuts the "animation"
2. Have the background script of which I was talking about all along and run it in a timer which will calculate every second for example where these firepoints should be and take appropriate measures. Developing this WILL take some time as unfortunately BC implemented math functions are crap. Not to mention my experiences with the bugs in the BC Engine
[offtopic]
Xtended's No Damage Through Shields was meant to be a lot more complex but due to bugs in the engine I had to simplify it. I wrote code using BC's crap integrated math functions to calculate which shield vector was hit and verify if that shield was supposed to allow damage to go through it. It would have made the combat a lot more realistic but what happend is that I detected a bug which shown me that fire was triggering 2-3 points of a shield. If a port shield was hit it would also trigger starboard and some other shields as the shields were supposed to stop damage from going onto the hull and we're talking about fully charged shields. BC development team fucked up big time.
[/offtopic]
So probably this will prove to be a problem. And will also look ugly as you will translate firepoint's position to match the target and will cause weird behavior in the "animation".
3. Make the ship static, most people will probably go ballistic as this is not exactly the most realistic approach but would not require any kind of additional code, probably.
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hmm as I recall the Tholian Web actually prevents the ship from moving from its current location... the ship is basically locked there. (this is a web... so the ship is essentially a bug)
could give the ship trapped in the web a percentage ability of escaping it... kinda like the tractorbeam escape mod? (forget its name)
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With all due respect to you people here of the elite scripters and modders i'd like to say a thing, i'm not challenging this is the first thing that i want to make it clear but i think that this would be a blast of mod "ohhhh it's going to take a hell of a time", yes it is going to take but i think it worth it because on what i have seen on the BC files i think that the modding of BC is getting too repetitive (if i'm wrong please correct me but give a proof of a total new thing that you people have done) cuz' when i got BC i have saw the mods and were great the Galaxy Charts, the Supermod, the KM mod, and the loads of ships that worth downloading but i have seen that people isn't making new mods, ok there is the guy from the runabouts and that one which made the TWOK bridges, the ones that are rarely making this new mods i have only seen repetitions of mods (again correct me if i'm wrong) there was a mod that i have saw that the guy make a reimagined Kessok ship, ok it must have a very good imagination but it's not like an Galxy Charts or a Supermod, and i think that this Tholian web mod that you people wants to throw out to the thrash can would be a real blast because people would have the possibilite to play their game with total new feature and i think that this could be a super collaborative mod like getting all of the elite scripters and modders, and not making a selfish thing, i'm going to talk like a klingon now but i think that i ou do that everyone would have their piece of glory in this mod. (As i have said before i don't want to offend anyone this is just my opinion).
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With all due respect to you people here of the elite scripters and modders i'd like to say a thing, i'm not challenging this is the first thing that i want to make it clear but i think that this would be a blast of mod "ohhhh it's going to take a hell of a time", yes it is going to take but i think it worth it because on what i have seen on the BC files i think that the modding of BC is getting too repetitive (if i'm wrong please correct me but give a proof of a total new thing that you people have done) cuz' when i got BC i have saw the mods and were great the Galaxy Charts, the Supermod, the KM mod, and the loads of ships that worth downloading but i have seen that people isn't making new mods, ok there is the guy from the runabouts and that one which made the TWOK bridges, the ones that are rarely making this new mods i have only seen repetitions of mods (again correct me if i'm wrong) there was a mod that i have saw that the guy make a reimagined Kessok ship, ok it must have a very good imagination but it's not like an Galxy Charts or a Supermod, and i think that this Tholian web mod that you people wants to throw out to the thrash can would be a real blast because people would have the possibilite to play their game with total new feature and i think that this could be a super collaborative mod like getting all of the elite scripters and modders, and not making a selfish thing, i'm going to talk like a klingon now but i think that i ou do that everyone would have their piece of glory in this mod. (As i have said before i don't want to offend anyone this is just my opinion).
wow... really?
im too stunned to even reply to that lol
perhaps you should start modding at some point and contribute, rather than express how vigorously dissapointed you are with the modding department...
(As i have said before i don't want to offend anyone this is just my opinion).
dude - i dont even think youre aware just how offensive your post was to many modders...
im gonna lock the thread at this point...