Author Topic: Origin Of The Borg?  (Read 12926 times)

Offline JimmyB76

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2007, 06:22:50 PM »
ya it did happen...  dont recall the ep either, but you are right...

Sandtrooper

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2007, 07:21:01 PM »
Darmok, and <whoever> at Tanagra (sp).
is teh episode name ur minds escape from.

Offline JimmyB76

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2007, 07:45:25 PM »
thats the one!  Darmok and Jilad at Tinagra...
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=101&pos=272

lol ok good, that was driving me crazy trying to remember which one...

so ya, the origin of the borg? 

Offline DJ Curtis

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2007, 08:07:27 PM »
Well, the Borg Queen says flat out in FC that the Borg were once like humans, flawed and organic, but that they learned to incorporate the synthetic.  So I'd say that pretty much declares the whole Vger thing useless as a third nipple.

Offline Barihawk

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2007, 08:12:01 PM »
Well, the Borg Queen says flat out in FC that the Borg were once like humans, flawed and organic, but that they learned to incorporate the synthetic.  So I'd say that pretty much declares the whole Vger thing useless as a third nipple.

You obviously missed the point. Borg from V'Ger does not mean that V'Ger created the Borg, it just made them what they are now.

Offline blaXXer

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2007, 02:06:42 AM »
Well, the Borg Queen says flat out in FC that the Borg were once like humans, flawed and organic, but that they learned to incorporate the synthetic.  So I'd say that pretty much declares the whole Vger thing useless as a third nipple.

You obviously missed the point. Borg from V'Ger does not mean that V'Ger created the Borg, it just made them what they are now.

See what a mess this whole Legacy storyline is?

Plus, as explicitly stated in Legacy, the Borg were created by V'Ger, not merely changed. You did play it yourself, didn't you?

/edit: Plus, I still consider it to be extremely weak not to come up with some original way of the borg being created and instead of falling back to the giant (pun intended) plot-device V'Ger is.
Also I vow for no mre borg as the primary vilains in upcoming Trek-Games, they're so overdone now.

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Offline Barihawk

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2007, 08:41:20 AM »
I watched Legacy's videos, in fact I just rewatched them now.

V'Ger was repaired by the Borg, in that video. The Borg were established as having existed. All V'Ger did was give them a drive and motivation that fascinated them. Hence, V'Ger "created" the Borg.

Oh, and since you brought it up. Dorothy and Derek wanted to bring a plot that encompassed all 5 generations. They wanted to take the Borg (TNG/DS9/VOY) and mix it with a renegade Vulcan (ENT) and then include V'Ger (TOS).

If Mad Doc had allowed them to include the full story, it would have made much more sense than the silly plotholes. I remember at one point Derek posted the entire storyline uncut on the Bethsoft forums, but I can't seem to find it. Regardless, he is working with modding teams to restore the complete storyline.

Offline Darkthunder

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2007, 09:58:57 AM »
Actually, V'Ger is TMP (not TOS), but who's counting right? :P

And as for the Borg, again it could not have been V'Ger that created the Borg, because the Borg already existed since 600 years before V'Ger was launched. Now it's been stated in canon that V'Ger entered into what was once known as a "Blackhole" and ended up in the far side of the galaxy. Obviously Spock got enough information through his mindmeld with V'Ger to know this. Why wouldn't he have also found out that it was thrown back in time as well?

Barihawk, the simple fact is: The Legacy storyline is full of holes and non-consistency with established canon.
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Offline mckinneyc

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2007, 10:58:02 AM »
I think the Borg started off much like ourselves. then they began adding technology to replace damage organs etc. then someome started adding it just to improve their bodies. then they devloped a way to link up to a computer to assimilate information and then that developed so they could transfer information to one another. soon they all began thinking as one and then decided to start assimilating other races and technologies. but all this took place over a number of centuries.

Offline Barihawk

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2007, 11:40:55 AM »
Actually, V'Ger is TMP (not TOS), but who's counting right? :P

And as for the Borg, again it could not have been V'Ger that created the Borg, because the Borg already existed since 600 years before V'Ger was launched. Now it's been stated in canon that V'Ger entered into what was once known as a "Blackhole" and ended up in the far side of the galaxy. Obviously Spock got enough information through his mindmeld with V'Ger to know this. Why wouldn't he have also found out that it was thrown back in time as well?

Barihawk, the simple fact is: The Legacy storyline is full of holes and non-consistency with established canon.

The theory was around for 15 years before Legacy came out.

And the time travel is speculation, since we are after all, speculating here. And don't dare use canon and consistency in the same sentence, or I will pull out more inconsistencies like the phaser one. Star Trek has been being written for 41 years now, with multitudes of different writers, producers, and so forth. There are inconsistencies abound, and all over the place.

Offline JimmyB76

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2007, 12:01:37 PM »
ok this "debate" is starting to get heated again...   guys please tone it down a bit...

Offline ChronowerX_GT

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #111 on: December 24, 2007, 09:05:35 AM »
They first Voyager probe was launched in 1977 with the others following soon after
The Eugenics war started in 1992.
Voyager 6 encounters the machine race in 2000
The Nomad Probe is launched in 2010
Zefram Cochrane is born in 2034
On April 5 2063 Zefram Cochrane breaks the light barrier.
In 2272 V'ger attacks earth.

Did Zefram Cochrane look 29 in first contact???


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Offline captain_obvious

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #112 on: December 24, 2007, 09:50:39 AM »
NECROED!

Good point, but look at the posting date matey ;)
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Offline blaXXer

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #113 on: December 24, 2007, 10:38:47 AM »
They first Voyager probe was launched in 1977 with the others following soon after
The Eugenics war started in 1992.
Voyager 6 encounters the machine race in 2000
The Nomad Probe is launched in 2010
Zefram Cochrane is born in 2034
On April 5 2063 Zefram Cochrane breaks the light barrier.
In 2272 V'ger attacks earth.

Did Zefram Cochrane look 29 in first contact???

did he look 200-something in the TOS episode?

anyhoo, this demands a RETCON!

YOU suck, get a life, moran.

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Offline ChronowerX_GT

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #114 on: December 24, 2007, 12:05:27 PM »
NECROED!

Good point, but look at the posting date matey ;)

Oh i know lol but I just had to point that out  :D :D :D


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Offline newman

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #115 on: December 24, 2007, 07:45:14 PM »
Want to talk illogical/inconsistent? Sure, let's go way back to the motion picture. Says Voyager 6 encountered the machine people in the year 2000, less then 30 years after it was launched, correct? It would take it more then that just to leave the solar system. Don't know about you guys, but I haven't noticed any wormholes/quantum singularities in the system during my last warp 1 cruise.. :)
Point is, there are no such anomalies in the proximity required for voyager 6 reaching them in said time, in real life or in the Star Trek plot. Besides, when you get right down to it, space is a pretty empty place. The existing groups of matter make up for a very small percentage of total space. The chances of a probe on a random course actually hitting such an anomaly are astronomically (pun intended) small. The chances of a probe moving at sublight velocities encountering anything of the sort in the given time frame are pretty much non-existent.
Think they should've invented a bit better plot concerning the creation of v'ger...

Offline Rob Archer

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #116 on: December 24, 2007, 09:05:13 PM »
I think the Borg started off much like ourselves. then they began adding technology to replace damage organs etc. then someome started adding it just to improve their bodies. then they devloped a way to link up to a computer to assimilate information and then that developed so they could transfer information to one another. soon they all began thinking as one and then decided to start assimilating other races and technologies. but all this took place over a number of centuries.

That Version of events is far more likely.... And consistent with star trek since. Remember the whole universe does not revolve around earth

They first Voyager probe was launched in 1977 with the others following soon after
The Eugenics war started in 1992.
Voyager 6 encounters the machine race in 2000
The Nomad Probe is launched in 2010
Zefram Cochrane is born in 2034
On April 5 2063 Zefram Cochrane breaks the light barrier.
In 2272 V'ger attacks earth.

Did Zefram Cochrane look 29 in first contact???

did he look 200-something in the TOS episode?

anyhoo, this demands a RETCON!

I'm working on a proposed "New History" of Star Trek which rectifies certain inaccuracies and adapts the Previous time lines to accommodate events that have never happened yet, For example the Voyager 6 probe has been "Retconed" and re dubbed as the Voyager 1 Probe (already outside of earths solar system.)

If you like i could post my retcon but i doubt many people will accept it since it violates that all important Cannon Protection

Offline newman

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #117 on: December 25, 2007, 02:33:09 PM »
I don't see much point. Yes, the Voyager 1 is out of the solar system, but it would still take it thousands of years to reach anything of interest. And even by then, it will still have traveled a very small distance from us, on a galactic scale.
In addition, that probe is extremely primitive tech, it's hard to imagine it gaining sentience, with the help of a machine race or not. To an advance, sentient machine, voyager 1 would be the equivalent of an amoeba. Hard to imagine any advanced race wasting time with that heap of scrap metal and primitive electronics.
The whole plot is just - old. Things like that could fly in the past, and since trek is more then 40 years old, there's plenty of such unconvincing stuff. If you want a rewrite to make it all believable, you'd have to re-write more then half of all trek. And by then, of course, it wouldn't be trek anymore.

Offline serverandenforcer

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #118 on: December 25, 2007, 07:04:47 PM »
O.K...... you all do know that the main purpouse for Star Trek is to make money (for executives, producers, directors, writers, film crew, tech crew, cast members, etc...) and they do it by making up fictional stories that grab our interests.  Since it's really all about making money, I think their respect and appreciation to the continuity and history of Star Trek isn't their highest priority.  Let's face it, the reality of the situation is that the film industry is actually really cold to the expectatoins of it's customers (you and me) and they'll throw anything out there with complete disregard to how well it makes sense as long as they get something out of it... and most of the time they succeed in doing that.  Of course, there are rare cases where consumers won't let them get away with too much bull crap and those executives and producers end up having to cancel a show or a project.  I personally feel that the true history of a fictional genre, such as Star Trek, lies in the hands of those who are most interested in it (the consumers - you and me), and a reliable and accurate account for what takes place in that genre is left up to us.  I don't think we as consumers should rely on those executive and producers to establish the true coninuity and history of Star Trek, since it is quite obvious what their real intentions are with the subject matter.  It is quite obvious the path that Star Trek has taken after Gene Roddenberry's death, and I personally don't think he would have let it end up the way it has become if he was still alive.  So saying that, I don't see anything wrong in disregarding the cannonness of what has taken place after his death and edit what is true to the overal theme of Star Trek, such as omiting what we have seen in episodes of the various series, and what has been produced in the retail marketing arena (video games and books).  So if the accounts in these items seems to be bogus, then why not just ignore it?  Infact, why not post up a poll on what everyone agrees should be actual and factual to Star Trek and what should be ignored as bogus material?


- I hope I wasn't insensitive or offensive with this post.  I keep looking at the first part of the first sentence and wonder if it'll get mis-interpreted in an offensive way.  If it is, I'll edit it.

Offline Rob Archer

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Re: Origin Of The Borg?
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2007, 07:48:50 AM »
I can shoot down the legacy idea flat out.....

1:) Cannon is described as things seen on screen which does not contradict that which has been earlier established:

2:) The Trek Games do not constitute Trek Cannon neither do the novels or other Trek Items.

Therefore the Borg queens statement that the Borg evolved similar to humans overrides legacies plot that the Borg were created from V'yger...