Origin Of The Borg?

[Chris Jones]

BR - I think Derek can say the same - he has done a lot for my team in particular - and other background activity that I can verify. He is in part the reason that your house - and my house - exist. The
crap story writer comment earlier was what irritated him - perhaps the same as if someone called your work 'crap'. 

[admiral homer]

To be honest I even take issue with your argument that we 'shouldn't complain when we don't do anything to help'. Critique is not something that is reserved for only those that work in your particular field. A valid point is a valid point. It doesn't matter if I can or can't write star trek, if I my (or anybody elses) critque is valid then it should be veiwed as such and not disregarded simply because you don't like the implication.

Agreed. I do respect D C Fontana but the story for legacy just didnt do it for me and the game play was terible, i was expecting it to be more like armada.

BR - I think Derek can say the same - he was done a lot for my team in particular - and other background activity that I can verify. He is in part the reason that your house - and my house - exist. The
crap story writer comment earlier was what irritated him - perhaps the same as if someone called your work 'crap'. 

I understand this but i stand by what i said and iam not the only one that thinks that. But we all know that in TNG the borg have existed for thousands of centurys not for just a century. So why change somthing that is already cannon and mess about with it so it pisses so many fans off?

[Darkthunder]

I can understand that they wanted to make a story, which could "possibly" explain the origin of the Borg. The only problem is: They're story is both non-canon and full of holes.

In Voyager, we know that the Borg has existed for at least 900 years (Episode "Dragon Teeth"). There is no chance in hell, that you can make it plausible that the Borg was created by V'Ger which was launched during the 1960s, and merged with a human in the 2270s.

[Blackrook32]

BR - I think Derek can say the same - he has done a lot for my team in particular - and other background activity that I can verify. He is in part the reason that your house - and my house - exist. The
crap story writer comment earlier was what irritated him - perhaps the same as if someone called your work 'crap'. 

That's been done. My point is his post was unnecessary "rude". And that comment of his was "NOT" just limited to the poster? It was a slam on the entire modding community. So yeah, I took offence. Which is why I stand by my statement. His contribution are no greater less than anyone else's. It's that type of 'elitist' crap I can't stomach. Perhaps were all idiots for sharing our work freely to the public?

[Darkthunder]

BR - I think Derek can say the same - he has done a lot for my team in particular - and other background activity that I can verify. He is in part the reason that your house - and my house - exist. The
crap story writer comment earlier was what irritated him - perhaps the same as if someone called your work 'crap'. 

That's been done. My point is his post was unnecessary "rude". And that comment of his was "NOT" just limited to the poster? It was a slam on the entire modding community. So yeah, I took offence. Which is why I stand by my statement. His contribution are no greater less than anyone else's. It's that type of 'elitist' crap I can't stomach. Perhaps were all idiots for sharing our work freely to the public?

Agreed. Just because Derek Chester and DC Fontana have paid jobs to write the stories for a game, doesn't make our non-profit work any less valid or any less worth then theirs.

[admiral homer]

I am sorry to cause offence at what i said, iam not getting at BC modders, these guys rock and are true trek fans like myself, it is star trek legacy i have the problem with and its story. As Darkthunder said it is full of holes and un-cannon. But as that is a different game and i have no gripe with the BC community then i think it is time we dropped this topic!

[UPD Equinox]

I can understand that they wanted to make a story, which could "possibly" explain the origin of the Borg. The only problem is: They're story is both non-canon and full of holes.

In Voyager, we know that the Borg has existed for at least 900 years (Episode "Dragon Teeth"). There is no chance in hell, that you can make it plausible that the Borg was created by V'Ger which was launched during the 1960s, and merged with a human in the 2270s.

Yeah but they explain that with a time warping black hole.

[admiral homer]

Yeah but that means they are at least 900 years old. So they could be older. And another thing people are forgetting, the borg come form the delta quadrant not the alpha so it cant of been v'ger as v'ger came from another galaxy

[Barihawk]

I know some of you guys dislike Star Trek: Legacy, but I need to address something.

Admiral Homer, you referred to Legacy's writers as "crap writers." I am guessing you have no clue who wrote Legacy.

Derek Chester was a co-writer for Legacy. Since the majority of you guys worship BC, I am surprised you don't know that Derek wrote the entire Star Trek: Bridge Commander storyline.

The other writer for legacy is Dorothy Fontana. She was writing for Star Trek in a time when women were looked down on in such lines of work. Therefore, many of you would know her as D.C. Fontana. She wrote Star Trek episodes such as "The Trouble with Tribbles" and "Journey to Babel." This woman was writing for Star Trek years before many of you were even born.

I understand the problems with Legacy. Mad Doc software not only screwed over fans, they screwed Bethseda as well (which is why their rights to the Star Trek license have been revoked.) But due to insiders at Bethseda and a few disgruntled Mad Doc employees, the Legacy modding community have been given various tools to redesign the game. In fact, Chris Jones, a legend in the BC community has been working hard to revive the game, and so far it's going very well.

The point is, I am sick of all this polarized bullcrap in the Star Trek gaming community. Legacy had a very good storyline aside from it's glaring engine bugs. With support, it will be the next Bridge Commander in terms of modding. So stop ragging on it because it wasn't Bridge Commander 2.


Back on topic: I was always a fan of the Borg from V'Ger theory. In fact, Gene himself believed it. Regardless of what you believe, it doesn't really matter. It's fiction, and not a very consistent one at that. I liked Star Trek because I could enjoy it with people who would not sit around debating "canon" but it seems that is no longer the case.

In order for V'Ger to travel across the galaxy (according to TMP, it traversed the entire galaxy anyways), it would have required a wormhole or black hole. Both of which are notorious in Star Trek for altering time and space. It's entirely possible that the probe was sent back a thousand years.


EDIT after reading: Blackrook, how dare you call Derek rude. You call him and Dorothy "crap writers" and then call him rude? It's like the pot calling the kettle black. Honestly.

[Blackrook32]

I know some of you guys dislike Star Trek: Legacy, but I need to address something.

Admiral Homer, you referred to Legacy's writers as "crap writers." I am guessing you have no clue who wrote Legacy.

Derek Chester was a co-writer for Legacy. Since the majority of you guys worship BC, I am surprised you don't know that Derek wrote the entire Star Trek: Bridge Commander storyline.

The other writer for legacy is Dorothy Fontana. She was writing for Star Trek in a time when women were looked down on in such lines of work. Therefore, many of you would know her as D.C. Fontana. She wrote Star Trek episodes such as "The Trouble with Tribbles" and "Journey to Babel." This woman was writing for Star Trek years before many of you were even born.

I understand the problems with Legacy. Mad Doc software not only screwed over fans, they screwed Bethseda as well (which is why their rights to the Star Trek license have been revoked.) But due to insiders at Bethseda and a few disgruntled Mad Doc employees, the Legacy modding community have been given various tools to redesign the game. In fact, Chris Jones, a legend in the BC community has been working hard to revive the game, and so far it's going very well.

The point is, I am sick of all this polarized bullcrap in the Star Trek gaming community. Legacy had a very good storyline aside from it's glaring engine bugs. With support, it will be the next Bridge Commander in terms of modding. So stop ragging on it because it wasn't Bridge Commander 2.


Back on topic: I was always a fan of the Borg from V'Ger theory. In fact, Gene himself believed it. Regardless of what you believe, it doesn't really matter. It's fiction, and not a very consistent one at that. I liked Star Trek because I could enjoy it with people who would not sit around debating "canon" but it seems that is no longer the case.

In order for V'Ger to travel across the galaxy (according to TMP, it traversed the entire galaxy anyways), it would have required a wormhole or black hole. Both of which are notorious in Star Trek for altering time and space. It's entirely possible that the probe was sent back a thousand years.


EDIT after reading: Blackrook, how dare you call Derek rude. You call him and Dorothy "crap writers" and then call him rude? It's like the pot calling the kettle black. Honestly.

Honestly, Try reading before you post? I said no such thing.

[admiral homer]

Look i do know who wrote legacy and if you remember a few posts back i said DROP IT! This whole v'ger being the origin of the borg thing is silly and there is no need to argue about it, and we all know some peoples views on legacy, and i do respect DC Fontana and even Derek i just wasnt a fan of the story for legacy. For me it was full of holes and lacked depth the way BC did

[UPD Equinox]

Well to be honest I see ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why Legacy shouldn't have been BC2. BC has dynamite gameplay and dynamics with great moddability and versatility. With upgraded graphics, more realistic physics, the authentic voice acting, upgraded interface, and more ships it could have easily been a BC2. The story wouldn't have been affected by the gameplay. If fact if anything it would have been helped with a more BC style. I think the game was just an absolute SHAMBLES. The games developers should be ashamed of themselves.

[JimmyB76]

ok, this thread has drifted far too offtopic and is getting too heated...

the point of this thread was about the Origin of the Borg - so if that topic cannot be discussed, the thread will be locked...

so please go back to the original topic...

thx

[Barihawk]

Still want to know legitimate reasons you guys think the Borg from V'Ger theory is bullcrap, without resorting to "pmg Legacy sucks."

I find it so odd that you guys think that way when Gene himself proposed the idea when the Borg were first being formulated for Star Trek: The Next Generation.

[blaXXer]

Still want to know legitimate reasons you guys think the Borg from V'Ger theory is bullcrap, without resorting to "pmg Legacy sucks."

I find it so odd that you guys think that way when Gene himself proposed the idea when the Borg were first being formulated for Star Trek: The Next Generation.

I can only give you my POV on that issue but I figure it's as good as any.

The Borg from V'ger theory is bullcrap for several reasons, let me just elaborate first on the out-of-universe reasons:
Resorting to timetravel, some wormhole, technobabble, spatial anomaly, thingmajig-of-the-week is an extremely weak way of resolving perceived problems in a deus-ex-machina-stlye that is as thought-provoking as afore mentioned bullcrap.
to put it short: It's cheap to be willing to tie each and everything together story-wise just for the sake of doing it.
Heck, do something original for once, kthxbi?

Secondly, as an in-universe-reason:
If the Borg really stemmed from V'ger why did their respective directives differ so much from another? Why did V'ger 'scan' everything in if it needed the Borg to collect information?
If it could scan in everything (which we saw it could) why create the borg in the first place? How does this mesh with the things the BQ said in FC? (Being organic at first, not mentioning the deity, V'ger?)
These are just a few of many many continuity problems that would arise with the Borg stemming from V'ger.

Another thing with that stupid Legacy storyline is: When the Feds had contact of some sorts with the Borg for so long why didnt anyone bother to make a friggin notice somehwere?

[Barihawk]

I will answer your last question first, since it is really more of an Enterprise era discussion. The Borg never properly introduced themselves, and none of their ship configurations were identified. They removed all of their salvageable technology from the Arctic crash site and it was destroyed along with their ship.

First question: Because it works. Trek nitpickers were an extremely rare breed until the advent of the internet. Gene and the other producers never really thought people would tear things up like this.

In-Universe questions:

1. It is implied in TMP, Voyager and Legacy (you say it, I will) that V'Ger set off on it's mission of exploration several hundred years ago. The queens would have been left to sift through the information and continue V'Ger's directives. Over time, those directives would be skewered by the passing of time, and the fact that the Queen's seem to have a unique form of individuality. Even the Borg can be tempted by power.

2. V'Ger did not create the Borg in the sense of physical creation. The Borg were there before they found V'Ger. They repaired it, and analyzed it's programming. "To seek all that is seekable, to know all that is knowable." They had found their God. They repaired V'Ger and equipped it to complete it's mission. Then, like worshippers of a faith, the Borg inherited V'Ger's directives and began their own mission of exploration.

When I say "Borg from V'Ger" I mean that the Borg were not created by V'Ger, but inherited their drive for assimilation from it. Hence, V'Ger created the Borg that we know and love today.

[blaXXer]

I will answer your last question first, since it is really more of an Enterprise era discussion. The Borg never properly introduced themselves, and none of their ship configurations were identified. They removed all of their salvageable technology from the Arctic crash site and it was destroyed along with their ship.

Very convenient, isn't it? so we can milk the borg-phenomena in each and every era before TNG ;-)
 

First question: Because it works. Trek nitpickers were an extremely rare breed until the advent of the internet. Gene and the other producers never really thought people would tear things up like this.

Well this does not answer the question as to why it had to be brought up today (in the day and age of the internet).
Plus, let me remind you that Gr is dead for quite some time now, before we got Ds9, VGR and ENT, so it makes no sense to dig up old ideas that have already been contradicted by established canon.
Plus, GR did intend the borg to be the insectiod parasites that we saw in 'Conspiracy' but that idea had to be dropped because of insufficient special effects at that time.
 

In-Universe questions:

1. It is implied in TMP, Voyager and Legacy (you say it, I will) that V'Ger set off on it's mission of exploration several hundred years ago. The queens would have been left to sift through the information and continue V'Ger's directives. Over time, those directives would be skewered by the passing of time, and the fact that the Queen's seem to have a unique form of individuality. Even the Borg can be tempted by power.


2. V'Ger did not create the Borg in the sense of physical creation. The Borg were there before they found V'Ger. They repaired it, and analyzed it's programming. "To seek all that is seekable, to know all that is knowable." They had found their God. They repaired V'Ger and equipped it to complete it's mission. Then, like worshippers of a faith, the Borg inherited V'Ger's directives and began their own mission of exploration.

Nope, it is implied that V'ger was sucked through space and time into another galaxy to a planet of sentient machines (machines is the key here) who repaired it and sent it back on it's way. As stated before: the borg started off as organics just like you and I (ST:FC). In voyager, and TNG the only thing that was implied is, tat the borg had been around for some milennia now.

When I say "Borg from V'Ger" I mean that the Borg were not created by V'Ger, but inherited their drive for assimilation from it. Hence, V'Ger created the Borg that we know and love loathe today.

fixed. :arms:

[Barihawk]

At point #1: Berman and Braga will do anything for money. Regeneration was a good episode, nonetheless. And I liked how it wraps up First Contact.

Point #2: It's brought up today because the internet is a horrible, horrible place! While 15 years ago, such discussions about anything from movies to books would take place at conventions. Now, we can have them any time we want.

I hate the word Canon. First off, it makes me think of artillery. Secondly, Star Trek has hundreds of continuity errors. Canon really only serves like a guideline to me. Like the Ent-D firing phasers out of her torpedo tube .

Gene really didn't like the Borg in the first place. I had a chance to talk to Mike Okuda at a convention a few years ago (the only one I have been able to go to) and he said Gene really didn't like the way the Borg came out. It was only after Q Who did he make the reference to the Borg possibly being related to V'Ger.

Regardless, the similarities between the Borg's mission and V'Ger's are too great for coincidence.

Point #3: When did they say another galaxy? And yes, I agree that the Borg were an organic race before they adapted the synthetic. We do know, however, that V'Ger was sucked back a long time in order to accomplish it's task. That the Borg at least came in contact with V'Ger we don't know.

@fix: That depends on your point of view

[Nighthawk]

Canon really only serves like a guideline to me. Like the Ent-D firing phasers out of her torpedo tube .

huh? o.0?

[Barihawk]

Canon really only serves like a guideline to me. Like the Ent-D firing phasers out of her torpedo tube .

huh? o.0?

I forget the episode (I think it might have been "Pen Pals" but the Big D fires phaser blasts out of the torpedo tube in the neck. It was a miscommunication between the SFX team and the Okudas.