Klingons in Voyager

[candle_86]

In Prophecy the klingons are wearing uniforms from the 24th century, but they have been gone from klingon space for over 100 years. Should they not be wearing the silver armor of the Klingons from Season3 or the Gold from seasons 1 and 2 of TOS and not the 24th century armor from TNG and DS9.

Also they shouldn't have ridges




instead of

[Daystar70]

Dude did you not see the Enterprise stories that dealt with this? Yes, They do have ridges, the klingons were experimenting with the same data that created the Khan super soldiers eugenics war,and a large portion of their people became "genetically messed up"and dr phlox had to help them, but said it would take many decades to filter thru the DNA. Ancient Klingon pictures worf has in episodes showed them in the TMP armor, and ridges, that is the Klingon natural appearence. Gene roddenberry said the Klingons should have had the ridges but he couldnt afford the makeup back then that is the ONLY real reason why they did not..they shouldnt have even had to explain it people should have used their imaginations and realised this is justa  wardrobe/makeup issue and is not in need of being addressed,but Ds9 "trials and tribbleations" talked about it and then Enterprise canon  addressed it directly to settle the matter once and for all.

technically what happened in TMP would be considered a "Retcon" when you go backwards and rewrite or change established canon retroactivley.

Note- Khaless when cloned by the clerics of the Klingon religion in one TNg episode, had ridges.,,and he was ancient, a clone of the original.

[candle_86]

doesnt explain the armor, and this armor was actully worn in DS9 Trials and Tribileations, also TMP armor is also diffrent from TNG Armor. STIII, STIV, and V also have diffrent Armor, STVI uses TNG Klingon Armor but its not till 2293 they do, and as its been at least 100 years that means 2276 at the latest they left, there armor would have to be at best ARmor from STIII or the armor from the Motion Picture, but they are quite clearly wearing TNG armor, which is impossible

[Daystar70]

This is a case where your lookign way to deep into it dude. We don't know for a fact ALL klingons wore the same armor all the time, In Enterprise the Klingons had more Ragged looking uniforms, but that does not mean the TMP + armor did not exist, when they produced the Voyager episode they were grabbing wardrobes they did not really care. Enterprise re-used Romulan uniforms from TNG era for ENt era Romulans rather than the TOS uniforms..there is no explanation--there need not be one. Sometimes you have to think outside the box of this is a tv show and they need to reuse stuff, and thats that, there will most likely never be a canon answer to this it's such a minor issue that i highly doubt it will ever get addressed. personally i am in the middle on this issue- for example i absolutely HATED TNG + Romulans-- the female romulan commander in "the enterprise incident " was exotic and HOT, they made all Romulans the females to, UGLY with those ridge foreheads and prosthetic hair peices--one exception- the character anbassedor caitlinn darr in trek v the final frontier--she was smoking Hot it was  a shame they barely showed her. Commander denotra in nemesis was not bad but Dina Meyer is so beautiful i think she overcame the makeup lol. Deanna troi looked atrocious in her Romulan disguise in one TNG episode. Butt ugly.

[Darkthunder]

All I see here is another whiny thread about how canon is violated back and forth throughout Trek yet again...

Use that thing you supposedly have above your shoulders. I believe it's called a brain. Realistically speaking, there is a 40+ year history to Star Trek, and it has not once been "perfect" when it comes to canon and continuity. Star Trek: ENTERPRISE did their best to try and explain "in canon" why Klingons of the 22nd-23rd centuries looked vastly different to those in the 24th century. While us "mere mortals" know that it was simply a budget/prop issue during the 60s. They simply didn't afford a bunch of expensive rubber cosmetics back in those days.

I'll give you a great example of breaking continuity (and it started from the beginning): Roddenberry himself said that: "In the future, there is no wars. No poverty. No need for money.". In the TOS episode "A piece of the action", Kirk tries to "muscle in" on some gangsters who were imitating 1930s Chicago. In another episode, Kirk specifically said that the Federation had invested alot of money in whatever was happening at the time. In Star Trek VI, Scotty says he bought a boat.

So you tell me, realistically speaking... why do you think Klingons in Voyager look the way they do? Without the "whinyness" you've had in past posts, please.

[Daystar70]

I'll say this for Candle, he is a hardcore Trekkie. I say Trekkie because Gene roddenberry once said when a fan corrected him that its "Trekkie not trekker". 

[candle_86]

All I see here is another whiny thread about how canon is violated back and forth throughout Trek yet again...

Use that thing you supposedly have above your shoulders. I believe it's called a brain. Realistically speaking, there is a 40+ year history to Star Trek, and it has not once been "perfect" when it comes to canon and continuity. Star Trek: ENTERPRISE did their best to try and explain "in canon" why Klingons of the 22nd-23rd centuries looked vastly different to those in the 24th century. While us "mere mortals" know that it was simply a budget/prop issue during the 60s. They simply didn't afford a bunch of expensive rubber cosmetics back in those days.

I'll give you a great example of breaking continuity (and it started from the beginning): Roddenberry himself said that: "In the future, there is no wars. No poverty. No need for money.". In the TOS episode "A piece of the action", Kirk tries to "muscle in" on some gangsters who were imitating 1930s Chicago. In another episode, Kirk specifically said that the Federation had invested alot of money in whatever was happening at the time. In Star Trek VI, Scotty says he bought a boat.

So you tell me, realistically speaking... why do you think Klingons in Voyager look the way they do? Without the "whinyness" you've had in past posts, please.

given your attitude i will not honor you with response

This is a case where your lookign way to deep into it dude. We don't know for a fact ALL klingons wore the same armor all the time, In Enterprise the Klingons had more Ragged looking uniforms, but that does not mean the TMP + armor did not exist, when they produced the Voyager episode they were grabbing wardrobes they did not really care. Enterprise re-used Romulan uniforms from TNG era for ENt era Romulans rather than the TOS uniforms..there is no explanation--there need not be one. Sometimes you have to think outside the box of this is a tv show and they need to reuse stuff, and thats that, there will most likely never be a canon answer to this it's such a minor issue that i highly doubt it will ever get addressed. personally i am in the middle on this issue- for example i absolutely HATED TNG + Romulans-- the female romulan commander in "the enterprise incident " was exotic and HOT, they made all Romulans the females to, UGLY with those ridge foreheads and prosthetic hair peices--one exception- the character anbassedor caitlinn darr in trek v the final frontier--she was smoking Hot it was  a shame they barely showed her. Commander denotra in nemesis was not bad but Dina Meyer is so beautiful i think she overcame the makeup lol. Deanna troi looked atrocious in her Romulan disguise in one TNG episode. Butt ugly.

yes but how hard would it be create the proper uniform for this, im sure the uniforms for Trials and Tribleations where still in the studio, not to mention many times including TNG and ENT they borrowed props from fans and fan made TV show. The Connie bridge in Relics was from a trekkies garage, and in ENT they borrowed all the sets and props from New Voyages. There is really no excuse for the lazyness there, as they had to remake the gold armor for DS9, and it wasnt expensive either, are you telling me they cant make it for a voyager episode or get the DS9 uniform they made for it? Remember the fight on K7, the DS9 crew fought some of the Klingons and a few extras whore the uniform approiate to the time. ITs being lazy, and really no excuse can be made for that.

[Daystar70]

You make a Good point but Ds9 and VOy had different production teams, and depending on the remaining budget they have for spending that determines how much they get oked to do, sometimes they made episodes and had to short change the intended FX or costumes or sets due to haven spent to much on a previous episode or holding the money for a cliffhanger episode theyre scheduled to shoot later.

[candle_86]

well diffrent production teams but BnB saw over both shows, and they often borrowed sets and props from each other remember? Also Season 7 had only one big show besides end game, that was workforce, and alot of it was filmed on location so that might have cost a pretty penny. But spending 50 bucks for a few canon uniforms doesnt sound like it breaks the budget to me, its just them being lazy. But all the interviews about Voyager said Season7 seemed more thrown together and not alot of care was taken with it, and it shows, Season 7 is the worst season of Star Trek yet

[Daystar70]

After what B+B did to spit in the face of any ENT fans with "these are the voyages" ent Finale, i think of them as crap. It's no coincidence some of the, no..most oft the best of TNG and Ds9 was done by none other than Galactica's Ron moore.

[Darkthunder]

given your attitude i will not honor you with response

Two words to sum up why most inconsistencies occur:

Money, and Lazyness

It wasn't until after Nemesis failed horribly, and the cancelling of ENTERPRISE that Paramount realized that maybe, just maybe... they need to shell out a little more money to keep Trek alive. Which, dare I say it... it definitely is, in the form of the "alternate" universe of Trek XI (and beyond).

Thanks for responding so arrogantly in your last post.

[King Class Scout]

one element you guys forgot.  it's called "cleaning out the garbage"  .  they may have thrown away some of the props in use.

are you talking about the "augment virus" episode trilogy in Enterprise?

[Daystar70]

Yes i was..good point and also, recently paramounts been ebay auctioning out stuff like seven of nines catsuits etc.

[JimmyB76]

if i see *anymore* rudeness from *anyone* to another person again, bans will be handed out!
knock it off!  if you cannot be polite, do not post!

im not kidding - i am sick of seeing uncalled for rudeness!

[undedavenger]

I just wish they had digitally inserted the foreheads into TOS-Remastered, and then we wouldn't be having this argument.

Even Federation uniforms of the supposed same design look quite different, even within the same episode. Some are reuses, others are new. It's TV production, nothing more is implied, I'm pretty sure. A person can drive themselves nuts trying to explain every tiny detail they find.

[Daystar70]

I just don't care for the Klingons as a Race Superpower, I love individual characters like Worf, the female Klingon scientist in that TNG ep where Dr. crusher was investigating the murder of a Ferengi scientist, was really Hot, But my problem with Klingons is I cannot fathom how such a 2 dimensional, close minded, Barbaric society could prosper and become a major Galactic Empire without destroying themselves completely. TOS Klingons were not quite as barbaric at all, Modelled after Monguls i believe and ghangis khan, I will say this- The Bat'leth is one of the best "original" weapons in sci fi since the Lightsaber-a blade like that could actually be quite amazingly effective in battle, when worf showed his son how it becomes part of your arm in one episode, i recall thinking " Now this makes perfect sense, and quite impressive".

[Daystar70]

From Wiki-

Redesign

For Star Trek: The Motion Picture, the Klingons were retconned and their appearance and behavior radically changed. To give the aliens a more sophisticated and threatening demeanor, the Klingons were depicted with ridged foreheads, snaggled, prominent teeth, and a defined language and alphabet.

Yup- as i thought- retconn. It boils down to this- Smallville created a character who Retconned as clark's best friend, chloe sullivan, and DC is even adding her to the canon comics as part of his backstory due to enormous popularity, a perfect example of rewinding and inserting "new" facts to "old" ideas, As a fan of whatever gets Retconned, Your Job is to then open your mind to say "it was always this way" like when watching colorised black and white I Love Lucy.

Okay Modified this Post after furthur reading this sums it up-

Explanation and theories

According to the official Star Trek web site, the Klingons' varying appearance is "probably the single most popular topic of conversation among Star Trek fans".[22] While the real reason for the discrepancy between The Original Series Klingons and their feature film and later television series counterparts was a lack of budget, fans took it upon themselves to contrive an acceptable canon reason for the sudden change.[23] These theories postulated that TOS Klingons were in fact humans raised as Klingons, similar to Janissaries; that for cosmetic or diplomatic reasons, Klingons removed the ridges via surgery; or that TOS Klingons were in fact hybrids with a more human species.[24] Simple theories that the different Klingons were different racial breeds were complicated by the fact that the characters of Kang, Koloth, and Kor appeared with smooth features in the original series, yet reverted to a ridged appearance in Star Trek: Deep Space 9, and that Worf acknowledged the difference in appearances when the crew of Deep Space 9 returned to the 23rd century in the episode "Trials and Tribble-ations," but offered no explanation, saying merely, "We do not discuss it with outsiders."[23]

A canonical explanation for the change was given in a two-part storyline on Star Trek: Enterprise. The two episodes, "Affliction" and "Divergence", aired in February 2005. An earlier story arc featured the Augments, genetically-engineered humans left over from the Eugenics Wars of the late 20th century, and who were defeated by Captain Jonathan Archer and the Enterprise in Klingon space. The Klingon High Council fears that Starfleet was developing armies of Augments; after gaining access to genetic material from the Augments, the Klingons perform experiments to increase their own intellect and strength. The experiments turn disastrous when a strain of flu one of the test subjects suffered from is mutated and becomes a deadly plague that spreads across the Empire, causing physical changes resulting in the afflicted bearing a TOS-era appearance. Dr. Phlox of the Enterprise formulates a cure for the virus, but the physical alterations remain in the populace and are inherited by offspring. Phlox indicated that "someday" the physical alterations could be reversed.[25][26]

SideNote- Kor, who had a flat forehead in TOS, Had RIDGES in Ds9- they never bothered to explain that either.

[Tuskin38]

SideNote- Kor, who had a flat forehead in TOS, Had RIDGES in Ds9- they never bothered to explain that either.

Kang, Kor and Koloth all had Ridges in DS9. All three were from TOS, and all three were played by the original actors, lol.

[majormagna]

My theory on the Kang, Koloth and Kor somehow gaining ridges subject. (Probably has no merit but meh)

It's a mixture of age and descendancy; i.e. ENT Klingons were 'given' their smooth foreheads, but when they reach a certain age the ridges start to re-assert themselves, albeit slowly. Their offspring would either:
A) Develop with smooth foreheads, each generation gaining the ridges earlier. OR
B) Develop with how 'pronounced' the mother and fathers ridges are, and possibly become more pronnounced.

I prefer A.

TOS Klingons would still be in the right period for this, as the majority of them were relatively young. As they aged, Kang, Kor and Koloth's forhead ridges started to re-assert themselves (Sometime around TMP era) and most Klingons around the age of 20-30 would also gain them. As we saw no Klingon children before Alexander (I think) this is a reasonable solution.

By TNG era, the Klingon race is almost back to normal; gaining their ridges within the first year of birth. By Voyagers time, the Klingon genes have completely re-asserted themselves and children develop from conception with the forehead ridges.


Any thoughts?

[Daystar70]

That is a good theory "If" one wanted to worry about it. But i refer back to the "there is no explanation it is what it is, budgets and tv" thing..BUT i have a new analogy i thought of. How many actors have played Batman? On the soap "days of our lives" (3 ex wives all watched it, i had no choice but i won't apologise for thinking Hope is HOT), They Constantly changed actresses for certain lead characters or males to, they offered No explanation, because as a fan or audience, you have to overlook that as "the character" how about this- Robin curtis or Kirstie alley saavik? There will NEVER be an explanation for her change of appearence, its a NON issue because in terms of "her character" nothing changed from the POV of the characters around her- We as an audience have to deal with it as Drama behind the scenes and Hug the "Character" and not cry over the actress who portrays her. This is no different- everyone really needs to stop trying to create explanations- ENT canon explained it, Retro virus blah blah- Time to Move on.

But Your theory is in line with explaining the KOR, Kang, etc non ridges to ridges, Or as Phlox said "in time this can be reversed" so a cure was found after TOS and kang, Kor and whoever got Treated and are Ridgey again--yay!