Bridge Commander Central
Recreational Forums => Trek Discussion => Ships & Tech Talk => Topic started by: Dawg81 on October 12, 2009, 11:23:52 PM
-
I couldnt find a thread about this so i finally got ahold of the entire destiny novels and to put it into plain terms THE BORG ARE NO MORE!!! after 2381 they met their better halves litterally!! i wont spoil this for those who havent read it but there are alot of twists and turns in the 3 part novel series starting in Ent era and ending in post nem. If anyone remembers ships of the line calander from a few years ago where the NX02 Columbia was buried in sand that plays one of several key roles in the destiny novels.
-
Spoilers below:
- NX02 Columbia is found in the Gamma Quadrant
- Destiny Novels are not part of the STO Path to 2409
- Borg are in STO
-
This is NOT canon..i am not trying to start a flame but Destiny novels are most assuredly NOT recognised by paramount, the Borg are back in STO and paramount is backing that storyline up 100%. Destiny is a great read, but it is not canon. It is not recognised as "this happens" by paramount studios and they not only don't recognise it, by supporting STO they're implying that storyline IS canon..but officially it's not yet canon unless the events get mentioned on tv or film of course. Paramount loves the Borg, they won't destroy tehir award winning most original villain in sci fi history (arguably,but i would agree ).
-
I can solve that "canon or not canon" argument with two simple words: Alternate Timeline. Great answer for everything. By that logic, all the books are canon, just in separate quantum realities. ;)
-
Now that i can agree with :) Even my own Daystar series is going to be considered in a alternate quantum reality so i can feel creatively free to do things that could be contradicted later. I have mentioned in past posts that alternate realities are so rampantly part of Trek, in some ways its a gift from teh producers to say to fans "everything counts really its a matter of what is canon or not in "prime"trek. And as a way for them to wiggle out of errors like the temporal cold war in Enterprise haha :P
-
wow i wasnt even aware of that but it is a very good read
-
Canonly, I think it's assumed that the Borg are dead or severely crippled. Uncanonly, it's all a bit mad to say the least.
-
I will never believe, ever, until its said,that the Borg are gone. They are to big a hit and have become culturally a phenomena they've had lengthy discussions on shows abotu what an unexpected smash hit the Borg are, hence why they got cinematic treatment in FC which was the most succesful TNG film BBECAUSE they had the Borg. Paramount won't eliminate a threat villain that can ring in cash any more than theyd kill off the Klingons
-
I have to disagree. The Borg are stale and way overused. They should die and stay dead, unless a truly refreshing revamp of them is done.
I will not play STO, therefore, it is not in my "canon". lol
If a tree falls and no one is around, does it make a sound?
-
I have to disagree. The Borg are stale and way overused. They should die and stay dead, unless a truly refreshing revamp of them is done.
Yeah, they really have been done to death. Literally.
If a tree falls and no one is around, does it make a sound?
Yup. :)
-
If a tree falls and no one is around, does it make a sound?
Yes. Sound vibrations are made wether an ear recieves it.
The Borg are still my favorites i think the KLingons have been done to death myself, and find them ridiculously crude as a fictional culture. They were interesting from Worf's point of view, but to many guest Klingons were portrayed as Utterly stupid animmals, The exceptions were Kruge from trek 3, and general chang of trek 6, General Mortok, Khey'lar....Even Gowron who started out semi intelligent and even listened to worf's wisdom about Khaless words and stopped the assault on ds9, ended up being written as a moron at the end of the war so thaty Worf had an excuse to challenge and kill him off.
The cardassians were One of the better villains to come along, more nazi like aliens and good makeup jobsm interesting ship designs, and consistent behavior while allowing individuals to shine within their race- Gul Dukat has my vote for all time best Trek villain.
-
This is why I like Star Wars canon, almost everything is canon as long as it was approved by LucasFilm, (Including games since they are by 'lucasarts'.)Yay no canon arguments for them, mostly.
Anyways... I like the Destiny novels. Screw STO.
-
As someone said theyre all canon in seperate universes of possibilities. I actually thought of a way the Borg could return even if Destiny became canon, much like The daleks in dr who, who were believed all destroyed in the time war, the few who survived in the void brought em back, and they got wiped agin..but davros may have survived and cycle again...Borg from an alternate reality could sidestep to the regular universe as that universes borg could have assimilated a species that did not exist in ours, who had dimension traveling technology they assimilated..anything is possible.
-
Borg? Gone? that's bit like saying Aids has been cured.. Just because of the endgame displayed death of yet another clone of borg queen, doesn't mean that they're done for.. no, they be back.
-
Lionus, we were not discussing endgame. ST: Destiny takes place in the early 2380's, Voyager returned in what? '73, '74?
I agree that the story should be worked out so that Destiny and STO work together. How many times have we seen the Borg "defeated", after all?
the real problem is the Klingons. At the end of Destiny, they are tighter with the Federation than ever. In STO, the Feds are back at war with them. A lot can happen in 20 years, but Martok struck me as having some respect for the Federation. I can't picture him advocating a war with his allies. What I CAN picture is a rival faction in the high council pushing a war behind he scenes, like when Gowron became Chancellor.
I guess we'll have to wait until STO comes out to see their reasoning.
While the Borg are overused and overexplained, the Klingons are worth doing if done the RIGHT way. Their complete history is a blank, pretty much. You could get some really good angles out of that, if the right author was working it.
-
The Duras family and Toral? the kid worf spared, are part of the plot breakdown of khitomer accords/and sela of romulans plotting, Klingons war with Gorn has something to do w it to.
-
Voyager returned in 2377/8.
As for what happens in Destiny and STO...I couldn't really care less. Both are seperate and have their own interpretation of events and STO has already played along with the beginnings of the JJ timeline.
-
STO according to the wiki, recognises "pieces of" Destiny, pertaining to commandra Donatras romulan power struggle, but chucks the rest.
Modification: Sorry, i meant Titan series, although they crossover. Anyways, In terms of The canon, My opinion has mutated to the following: we can argue and debate forever on whats recognsied or not asd canon, The pocket books Destiny series may have been" allowed to be" written, But Janeways own backstory on what was her first ship was "supposedly" clearly stated in a novel and disregarded and overthrown by an episode of Voyager, paramount has a habit of giving the green light to media then sayign F*** em well do this and contradict it anyways. So yes, even STO "must" by logic, be treated the same as the books- not canon-because like bridge commander/armada 1 and 2, SFC 1-3, the "stories" are like glorified fan fic- Tim russ<Tuvok">helped make "of gods and men" with many trek alumni, but does this give credit as canon to it? Unfortunetly not.
The exception to this rule in furthur common sense, is the canon of "countdown", because it was written by michael ocri of the Trek V! film, as a prequal backstory, an "extention" of the films plot, he recognises this by his own pen to paper as what happened in TNG era 2387, so use common frikkin sense- its close enough to be a "child" of the film in "prime" trek no less- to be treated as canon.
-
I would say Countdown has to go to the top of the list as far as candidates for "printed canon" I mean, it brought Data back and made him Captain of the freakin' Enterprise! That is too cool, and rights a serious wrong that Nemesis committed. Like I said, chances are extremely remote that I'll be playing STO, since I hate the gameplay format and having to pay to play a game I own. But I'll keep an open mind regarding the endpoint of its plot.
-
I would say Countdown has to go to the top of the list as far as candidates for "printed canon" I mean, it brought Data back and made him Captain of the freakin' Enterprise! That is too cool, and rights a serious wrong that Nemesis committed. Like I said, chances are extremely remote that I'll be playing STO, since I hate the gameplay format and having to pay to play a game I own. But I'll keep an open mind regarding the endpoint of its plot.
Technically, the Countdown comic is part of canon. The events directly tie into how "Old Spock" ended up in the alternate universe "timeline".
-
Keep in mind then, that you are risking adding movie novelizations to canon. And the Gerenrations one still had Soren shooting Kirk in the back, for example. The Star Trek II novelizationj had David and Saavik getting busy. And Spck and Saavik getting busy! (Little vulcan/romulan slut!) Also, Saavik was hinted to be pregnant at the end of that novelization.
So you see, those books cover additional material before, during, and after the film, and they are commissioned by Paramount. So you have to be careful what you readily accept.
-
Movie novelisations are canon with their own creative touches but in the end they're sitll the same. It's the details that don't happen in the movies which are uncanon, for example Kirk getting shot. But the end result is that he dies, which is canon.
-
I realize that, and am not trying to argue that point. I just used it as illustration. The changes I mentioned in the ST3 novelization would not have changed the actual film, even had they been added. And as you stated, even the difference in Kirk's death would not have really changed the film. They only changed it for audience perception, because most audiences cannot understand the poetic justice of Starfleet's greatest hero dying in such an ignominious fashion.
The point is, even Paramount cannot decide on the rules or implementation of its own canon. Say what you will about Lucas' huge control of the Star Wars franchise, at least he keeps it in pretty good order. If Paramount is to revive Star Trek to its previous popularity levels, the first thing they must do is appoint a sitting executive or "council" to oversee the direction of all facets of the ST franchise. Roddenberry, Harve Bennett, and Rick Berman have all filled this type of post. It was when ST was turned over to the bean-counters that it failed so utterly.
-
It's a shame TREK can't enjoy the Same Unity as the Expanded star wars universe. It amazes me how cohesive and recognised the expanded SW universe is, hell, Lucas is supportive, he even took aayla secura from Tales of the jedi and threw her into Episode 2. TREK expanded universe is unsalvagable as a unified "Prime" universe, but we could "section" it as alternate universes and accept each has its own canon, pocket books/dc comics/marvel comics/fan films/STO, i mean Trek has clearly set a presidence for multible alternating universes, why not just flow with that explanation and leave it alone, Y'know?
-
What would make a great statement (and probably some money) would be for Paramount to determine the canon events, and then republish all the novels that agree with it in new editions. Ignore the rest. Put them out as a matched set for all I care. That is about the only way to reconcile the books and give them legitimacy.
-
I don't think the Borg are really gone as far as the novels are concerned. In a few years from no they'll suddenly make a move again regardless of what previous books told us.
It's just like the Sith in Star Wars, whenever the writers don't know what to do next, a new Sith Lord suddenly pops up. One can't help but wonder where they all come from. Is there some higher power that makes Sith by the dozen?
As far as the Destiny books go, I can't say I like them. Erika Hernandez and the Caeliar function a one big Deus ex machina, Picard is out of character by being so angsty all the time and Dax and the Aventine seem to be there for no other reason than to give Pocet Books the opportunity to start a new series of book.
-
I'm with Daystar on this one. Considering how often I like to screw around with (Kelsey Grammer) a.k.a. Captain Morgan Bateson in my Shatnerverse alt-universe, I like to establish my stories above and apart from all other Trek Lit / Graphic Novels and the games noted at Memory Alpha, Memory Beta and "Star Trek: Extended Universe Wiki".