Ambassador Class

[Nighthawk]

funny thing there IS an ambassador on the battle of wolf359 at the beginning of DS9, but they disappear for the war.

I don't think CGI has anything to do with that. if something is beautiful already, CGI'd i'ts better

[ChronowerX_GT]

Lukerobin, where did you get that information about a new Excelsior model being built? Not trying to be a jerk, really. I love the production stuff, and everything I've seen or read has indicated that there was only one Excelsior model used. If you can cite where you found that info, I'd appreciate it, as I'd love to read it.

From memory alpha:
"The original Excelsior-class was a physical filming model designed by Nilo Rodis and Bill George. It was built at Industrial Light & Magic for Star Trek III under the supervision of Steve Gawley. The model also appeared in Star Trek IV and was relabeled for use in the first two seasons of The Next Generation. The model was refurbished for its appearance in Star Trek VI.

The model was again refurbished, with entirely new arrangements and details to represent a refit modification, the NCC-1701-B in Generations. The refit modifications were designed by John Eaves under the supervision of production designer Herman Zimmerman. Since the original model could not be returned to its original configuration, a new one was built by Greg Jein when the Excelsior appeared in "Flashback," at a smaller scale. This model continued to be reused until a CGI Excelsior was built for later seasons of DS9 and Voyager. Despite its age, the Excelsior has become one of Starfleet's most frequently seen "guest-star" vessels."

Here's the link aswell:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Excelsior_class

Strange thing is, the is no mention of the new model on the VOY: Flashback page on memory alpha. I doubt that this model was used much as they switched to CGI shortly after.

[mckinneyc]

It did mention the smaller one built for Flashback, you just posted it!

[ChronowerX_GT]

It did mention the smaller one built for Flashback, you just posted it!

Yes but look up the episode Flashback on memory alpha. There is no mention of the new model on that page even though it was built for that episode. The text I posted is from the Excelsior Class page.

[mckinneyc]

Ah I get you, I've read the Excelsior article a number of times but never the Flashback one. I'll go check it out.

[El]

Not sure if this has been covered, but Miranda's, Excelsiors, Saber's, Steamrunners etc, are comparatively small ships, so quicker to build and bring into service

This has a number of advantages, both tactically and economically;

• Smaller ships tend to be faster more manoeuvrable and generally harder to hit.
• They're quicker to build.
• Multiple smaller ships attacking single larger ships is a tactical advantage (as proven by the dominion)
• More ships to send on more, separate, missions.

The Ambassador, by comparison, is almost the size of the Galaxy, and has the relevant construction time limitations.

[ChronowerX_GT]

Not sure if this has been covered, but Miranda's, Excelsiors, Saber's, Steamrunners etc, are comparatively small ships, so quicker to build and bring into service

This has a number of advantages, both tactically and economically;

• Smaller ships tend to be faster more manoeuvrable and generally harder to hit.
• They're quicker to build.
• Multiple smaller ships attacking single larger ships is a tactical advantage (as proven by the dominion)
• More ships to send on more, separate, missions.

The Ambassador, by comparison, is almost the size of the Galaxy, and has the relevant construction time limitations.

and as I said on one of my earlier posts, 1 engine on a ship that size spells trouble with the dominion bug ships.

[undedavenger]

Hmmm. One source or the other on the Excelsior model is true. Either the featurettes on the Next Gen DVDs were mistaken (Which really could be, as some of the people on it don;t seem to know crap about Star Trek), but Memory Alpha is also a Wiki, which means it is not 100% guaranteed accurate. It doesn't really matter, though, and I think we're getting off topic a bit.

I think the 1 impulse drive on the Amby is indicaive of what I said earlier. They had no reason to feel threatened, peace broke out for a change, and the Amby was built weak so it could accomodate more scientific staff and equipment, much like the later Galaxy class. I mean, the D was supposed to be the best ship in the fleet, and look how often it got its butt kicked in battle. That's why the Sovereign class was built in the first place, because the Galaxy obviously was not a good match for the Borg.

I want to know where the Sovvy's were in the Dominion War. I can see why the Ambassadors might be out of date, but the most powerful ships in the fleet? I would think they would be on the front lines. (And they already had the conventional and 3D models from First Contact!)

[lint]

The real life reason the sovvy was never seen on tv was because it was designed as a "movie" ship and not meant for tv, thats why they never showed it in any series,
Thats the reason they gave in the First Contact special features if i remember correctly, but i DID see/read it somewhere from the designer.

[undedavenger]

If I remember correctly, they killed the D in Generations because it looked "fat and bloated" on a movie screen (which I somewhat agree with). The Sovereign might have been okay for TV. I mean, I've watched FC, Insurrection, and Nemesis on a normal TV, and it looks just fine. In any case, they could have at least mentioned that Sovereign class ships were engaged elsewhere. I often wondered during the later years of DS9 why they never even mentioned the Enterprise. The Dominion War was tightly focused around DS9 because of the Wormhole. Why not have some of the TNG crew make a special appearance or something. I would think it would stand to reason that the Federation flagship would be on the front lines, especially given that it is the most advanced ship in the fleet. I mean, the other FC ships made it in (Akira, Steamrunner, Norway), and they were obviously built to look good on the big screen, yet they looked fine on DS9. I think it was simply the ignorance of the show's writers that left them out. Script writers really should know something about their material.

I think the most obvious reason is that they wanted to keep the "mystique" of the Sovereign for movies, even though it too got the crap kicked out of it in all three of its appearances.

[ChronowerX_GT]

Perhaps in the ST universe they were too expesive to build or took too long to make. In real life it's easy to give the explination (just like with the Ambassador). I'm also guessing that they wern't building much new ships duning the DW because it would be easier to upgrade the fleet.

Actually, perhaps the Sovvies were defending Earth along with the Prommiethius.

If I remember correctly, they killed the D in Generations because it looked "fat and bloated" on a movie screen (which I somewhat agree with).

It could have gone out in a bigger blaze of glory like having multiple Klingon ships on it. However, that crash scene was fantastic. I was amazed by the effects.

[Shadowknight1]

I don't agree with the size thing.  I mean, look how many Galaxy class ships there were in the war.  Not to mention that I remember reading somewhere that by necessity, a lot of ships were rushed into production during the war, sent out with maybe a bit more than a skeleton crew and a lot of empty space rather than crew amenities.

Here's my take.  The war's main front was seemingly spearheaded by Adm. Ross's fleet.  However, they were just one fleet.  The entire Starfleet comprised of many, many ships, and quite frankly, unless there was some other place it was needed, ie. the "Battle of Betazed" or whatever, the Enterprise-E SHOULD have been at the Battle of Cardassia Prime.  It was the final blow in the Dominion War, and frankly I would expect the Federation flagship to be at the forefront.  Therefore, I assume that it was busy with another fleet elsewhere to try and keep any reinforcements from sneaking up on Adm. Ross's butt.  And I'd be willing to bet that some Ambassadors were stationed along side it, along with other ships that might have given those ridge-headed drug addicts something to worry about.

[ChronowerX_GT]

I don't agree with the size thing.  I mean, look how many Galaxy class ships there were in the war.  Not to mention that I remember reading somewhere that by necessity, a lot of ships were rushed into production during the war, sent out with maybe a bit more than a skeleton crew and a lot of empty space rather than crew amenities.

Mainly because they had all the spare parts lying about. There were enough to build like 7 Galaxy class starships in short time. But as I stated before the Ambassadors parts semmed unique to that ship so building it most probibly took more time and just as much resources.

[Pathfinder]

Well the ambassador class in BC is simply terrible, easily the weakest ship out there in quick battle save for the shuttle and maybe the galor. Older than a galaxy, not nearly as strong as the akira, not as advanced as a soverign , and certainly not as nimble as a nebula. If this is any indicator of how they were supposed to perform in the real Star Trek universe, then the reasons for scrapping this ship is clear. It might've stood up well in the post excelsior and pre enterprise d days (think of Enterprise C, in: Yesterday's Enterprise TNG) which probably earned the title heavy cruiser, but with the new ships of the line out it simply can't compete in this newer era of quantum torpedos and transwarp gateways.

[gclark03]

It's probably comparable to a late World War II battleship - wonderfully designed to excel in a world that no longer exists.

Between that and the Narendra III incident, I can understand why Starfleet would give the Enterprise name a rest. In fact, only the original Enterprise, the D, and the E were legendary in their own right before being damaged or destroyed; the A through C, according to canon, did nothing to earn the honor of their names until they were severely damaged, and in the case of the C, destroyed.

Is it just bad luck?

Anyway, the Ambassador seems like the bastard child of Starfleet R&D, and the black sheep of the TNG era as a whole.

[Adonis]

How about just because the design sucked in epic proportions?

[mckinneyc]

How about just because the design sucked in epic proportions?

Short, simple and I think hit the nail on the head Adonis.

Starfleet probably said yeah it will do, got the Apollo class out of it then moved on to the Galaxy family of designs using lessons learned from the Ambassador.

[martyr]

the ambassador looks awesome

[gclark03]

I doubt that Starfleet, knowing that the Ambassador 'sucked in epic proportions', would name one of them Enterprise. Don't you?

It's more reasonable to think that Starfleet intended for the Ambassador-class to replace the Excelsior, but a massive shift in technology pushed the Ambassador into obsolescence before its time.

[Villain]

I doubt that Starfleet, knowing that the Ambassador 'sucked in epic proportions', would name one of them Enterprise. Don't you?

It's more reasonable to think that Starfleet intended for the Ambassador-class to replace the Excelsior, but a massive shift in technology pushed the Ambassador into obsolescence before its time.

This is the most likely possibility. It's like with the current generation. We had a sudden surge of new stuff coming out all rapidly, so much so that a number of things (while impressive when released) were shot down within a month or less by something with a different approach, that wound up being clearly superior. The Ambassador most likely was titled, a breakthrough occurred, and (having being put into service) went on it's mission of however long. Strange that the Starfleet -flagship- wouldn't get the same rights as a lowly -Defiant- though.