Author Topic: The Precise Defiant  (Read 9775 times)

Offline Saquist

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2011, 01:19:08 AM »
I've read the Ex Astris Scientia article.  He concludes 120 meters on popular scaling.
I'm a drafter however.  I use the comparables to define the likely and proper scalings.  I remember the area where he notes the port on the underside of Defiant but then disgards that evidence.


Quote
Speaking of external details that may tell us something about the ship's size, there are none. Omitting all the details like windows, docking ports or lifeboat hatches may have been intentional, since the ship's size was apparently never definite in any stage of its creation. There are two rows of lights (image) facing the interior of the ship which may be some kind of windows, but which wouldn't make much sense on these lower deck(s). Moreover, this would mean there are either 8 decks altogether if we understand the light distance as deck height, or the lowermost deck 4 or 5 would have two impractical window rows close to the ceiling and close to the floor.

The problem is he's using a plan view to decided a Deck of Viability.  That's wrong.  He's doesn't appear to be thinking 3 Dimensionally The proper use of this space with artificial gravity is just as is shown.  There is a Greater amount of Vertical height Diagonally as this section slants into the Primary hull above.  On a 120 meter ship that is 5.1 meters of vertical height.  That's 16'...Tight for a split level.  But on a 170 meter ship that's 7.32 meters or 24.015748 feet.  That's more than enough.  Everything about the shape of the hull in this section says angled or slanted floors on two levels.  And these windows are  the only thing, CGI or otherwise, that is most consistent about the ship. Also look at the level areas of Defiant like it's underbelly.  Look at the curved vertical edges where the torpedoes launchers are located.  That area indicates one level.  Deck one has a similar feature of similar height it also indicates one level and when stacked and filled with other decks the total comes out (marginally) as 6 Decks.  These are design ques that signify a standard height. 

So this goes to the argument that at 120 meters the Defiant would have an enormous amount of excess and unusable space on Deck One and on this level between the Warp Engines.  Areas where  head height diminishes to nonviable points very quickly.  This is because Defiant has so few extruded forms.  It's very organic as Designs go.

Offline ACES_HIGH

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2011, 02:45:22 AM »
Bernd uses the exact same methods to accurately determine the size of every other ship he's analyzed.  Besides there is no precedence for non-horizontal decks on screen, and since these spaces are in the warp nacelle housing, there would be little room or use for any large compartments of the scale you suggest.  Anything in this area would undoubtedly be service spaces, which complies with Bernd's deck arrangement.  I'm with Bernd on this one, those "windows" must be some other type of structure, they couldn't be actual windows, as they do not correspond with crew quarters or any other major habitable area.

If you assume the scene in Starship down is a gaff, and go with the intended design, placing Engineering on decks 1 and 2, immediately aft of the bridge then the shape of deck one makes sense, the deck 2 engineering spaces take up both decks.
The defiant is the worst possible candidate to analyze scale based on screen evidence alone due to the studio's constant miss-scaling.  If you want to compare it to something you need to find something that is much more solidly scaled than Deep Space Nine, that's why Bernd dismissed DS9 for scaling purposes.

Offline Nebula

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2011, 03:00:20 AM »
Quote
I'm with Bernd on this one, those "windows" must be some other type of structure, they couldn't be actual windows, as they do not correspond with crew quarters or any other major habitable area.

I'll have to disagree here, there is no other thing they could be but windows.
There are also instances in the show where we do see windows in Defiant rooms.
The ship has at most 6 decks no matter how you slice it really IMO.

I can't see it having 4 decks at all.
Canon is what people argue exists on ships that don't exist.

Offline ACES_HIGH

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2011, 03:37:08 AM »
yeah, but those few rooms are all in the main hull, and the crew quarters don't have windows.  I think the only confirmed windows on the sets were in the wardrooms, which are on deck 2 IIRC.

Again, the only viable compartments there would be service spaces for the warp engines, why would they need windows?

Offline DJ Curtis

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2011, 08:26:59 PM »
I'm going to come right out and say this:

Saquist, if you come up with a set of blueprints, I'll build the ship.

Offline Darkthunder

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2011, 09:38:17 PM »
A DJ Defiant... now that's an interesting concept.

Thou, with your excellent Sovereign Class, what scale would you reckon the Defiant should have? *hints to First Contact intro, with the Ent-E zooming past the Defiant*
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Offline Saquist

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2011, 03:00:55 AM »
I'm going to come right out and say this:

Saquist, if you come up with a set of blueprints, I'll build the ship.

Well, it's a little too soon, DJ.
I'm confident about the top view I have.  I love it, infact. From the top view I can extrapolate the bottom view easily.
But it's the front view that will make or break these orthographic projections.  I'm probably shooting for an unrealistic standard of precision but I really don't want to end up with another flawed interpretation.  Ebay has my DVD's coming between 3/4/11 through 3/12-11.  There are front views I can use, I just need good resolution.   We'll see what happens

Offline DJ Curtis

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2011, 09:43:50 AM »
I'm not in any rush.  I'd scale it to whatever you told me to.

Offline Lurok91

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2011, 10:10:05 AM »
Saquist man, you deserve a cookie just for sheer commitment  :thumbsup:    And I'm sure I'm not alone in anticipating a DJ Defiant.

Offline Saquist

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2011, 03:33:07 PM »
Saquist man, you deserve a cookie just for sheer commitment  :thumbsup:    And I'm sure I'm not alone in anticipating a DJ Defiant.

I appreicate it but I haven't succeeded yet.

@ DJ,
For Bridge Commander the scale should be appropriate to how we most often see it so the Pictures of the Days are just as we seen on the show.

----Just got the DVD's in----

Here are some of the the screen caps I need.  The rear view is especially good.  I also began a surface model of the nose for comparison.  I'll post pictures of that later. But it looks like these will be able to confirm some heights from the specs.  (I'm most happy)  I may order season seven for some of those shots as I would like to do the same specs for the Jem'Hadar attack cruiser at some point.










Offline ACES_HIGH

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2011, 09:38:44 PM »
good luck with the cruiser, IIRC there are like 3 or 4 different variants that they seemed to use interchangeably on the show.  It's certainly going to be a challenge.

Offline Saquist

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2011, 04:12:53 PM »
The XPS 1730 is officially in the shop and this project on hold for now.

Offline Saquist

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2011, 10:22:00 AM »
Looks like the Cygnus Site has released David Schmidt's Defiant Design, at least the orthographic views are available in full size...the deck plans are still inaccessible.  I'm posting them here because the site has been unreliable for a year or so.  

While these can be useful I haven't corroborated whether his plans are truly good.
He does show the proper reveal from the rear on the sides of the nacelles but I'm concerned about the deck one profile from the rear.  It doesn't look as wide as I projected the last time I worked on the view.

These images are LARGE








I can already see that he makes the error of believing that all of the underside of Defiant from just behind the nose to the tail is one flat plane when I believe I've discovered that the aft underside actully angles up to the tail.
Right now these are the best orthos on the Defiant anywhere on the internet.

Offline Phaser

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2011, 10:24:44 PM »
I take it this means you got your PC back?

Offline Vortex

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2011, 11:49:15 PM »
Or he's become one with the internet. O.o

Offline flarespire

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2011, 01:46:41 PM »
Or he's become one with the internet. O.o
now thats a scary thought :eek

Offline ACES_HIGH

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2011, 01:49:04 PM »
Drexfiles just did a pictorial on the type 10 shuttlecraft Chaffee, in case that helps at all, and it includes an explanation of the scaling issues related to it.

Offline Saquist

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2011, 05:27:14 PM »
I take it this means you got your PC back?

Unfortunately not.
The motherboard had a blown capacitor.  I got it replaced but the surge scrambled the Master Hard drive.  Windows refuses to reboot.  I just dropped it off at another shop to see if they can restore it with their disk (since I don't have them).  Hopefully they can do a do a repair of windows instead of a system wide format.  There was only these drawings on the hard drive and music.

It sux that I lost that drawing.  That was months of hard work.  Maybe it's somewhere else but it will never be as far as I got.  The most I can hope for is the David Schmidt redraw and some of the photo tracings I had at the start.  I've already started a retracing of the Front of Defiant to compare on the photos but if I have to draw on this fossil of a computer....1.21 Giga Herts, 2 Gigs of Ram and a 125 6150 NVIDA Card...then I'm in trouble....

If I have to restore I'll likely upgrade to windows 7.

Offline Saquist

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2011, 12:58:43 PM »
Got the computer back from the shop for a restore.
Of course I have no Programs So I'll spend a couple of days reloading every thing.
The Good News is that I had two hard drives.  I had them reoad on the second Drive and that means my drawings look like their intact. 
So no restart from scratch.

Offline Saquist

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Re: The Precise Defiant
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2011, 05:25:48 PM »
More Analysis-
Deck One

Deck One of Defiant is one of the biggest mysteries.
Typically top is rendered as a Flat even and level surface from bow to stern.

We can see that 9 of 9's Defiant makes this translation





We can see that Lint's Defiant makes this translation





We can see that David Schmidt's Defiant and the Fact Files also make this Translation
Post #33 For David Schmidt.
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/gilso/defiant-schside.jpg

---------------

However there is a simple method of Determining if that is true.  Even 2 Dimensional Picture will tell you if a line is straight curved or angled by means of a 1 Dimensional Line.  And given the number of angles we see Defiant we begin to get a better idea of the geometry of Deck One.

Because of the sharper DVD image We can see that from directly above Defiants Bridge Area is pretty much a perfect circle.  (Blue lines represent a Perfect Circle Over lay.  So we're not dealing with some sort of ellipse on Defiant.


However From the Side View we get something Entirely Different....



As an example Look at the Thin Red Lines on Defiant's Nacelle.  These are traced over what should be straight lines (as we see from the Lakota/ Defiant Overhead)  Yet from the side view many of the lines on top of the Nacelle exhibit an arc until you get to the side of the Nacelle.  That means the top of Defiant's Nacelle actually Bulges or Dips in places.  (more on that Later)  Back to Deck One.  The Bold Green Circle signifies that perfect circle we Identified earlier But there is a problem...The Thin Blue line just above the Bold Red line  signifies the continuous line of the rest of Deck One and they clearly aren't on the same X/Y plane.  It seems it's angling into circular Bridge Plane and descending down as it goes to stern.  Above the Bold Red line where the Aft Deck One Transitions into the Circular Deck One We get another angle (some sort of transitioning angle represented by a slightly different Blue line)  While likely curved.  But it gets Better.  Apparently the Deck One's Circular portion isn't flat at all.  



The Whole Image is wrought with peculiarities. But Focus on the two short red lines just behind the Bridge.  Check out that angle... and compare it to the red center line (which also has it's issues Seems to curve up).  Those do not match up at all and if you think it's just that the aft part of Deck One slopes toward the rear....then the next image will really cause you fits...






From this angle those yellow panels whose  parallel lines have been tagged by my red lines (second image up) are definitely launching up (front to back) at a greater incline than the rest of the aft section of Deck One.  More odd is that the Bow half of Deck One's circle doesn't match that aft angle we see represented by the 2 red lines like one would expect.  Instead of even being flat there seems to be an angle between the bow outer circle and the inside circle (essentially the space where the ships name is place upon) So the front half of the circle has a shallow down angle and aft end of the circle has a steeper angle.

So other oddities.  In Image 6 of this post.

#1  Notice the Inside edge of the nacelles.  The front end of those lines angle sharply to meet the Top Surface of the Primary Hull.
David Schmidts gets that right but Lint and 9 of 9 Translate as one even and straight line (as it looks from the top but from any other angle)

#2 It's questionable if the entire back side of Deck on is one Angle too.
Notice the red trace line at the far back that leaps over the gap in between the two aft prongs.  That the actual lines angle above my red line either implies that there is an arc to this aft section or that but prongs are slightly angled according to the hull beneath.   So right now I'm looking to define the area between the Aft Circle and those large vents which seem to have something going on other than straight lines.  These lines have to be figure out first because we can no longer just assume that Deck One has a completely Flat ceiling.  So now we have wonder if there is any level surface on top of ship that matches the level nature of the shoulders of ship were the Torpedo Launchers are housed.  What's the relationship between them?  Are they still level and it's just the very top where the ships name is that's has the angle or is the entire top of deck slightly tipped upward?