Star Trek Into Darkness - Images, Videos, Discussion, etc

[Shadowknight1]

Saw it last night. Loved. It to the point that I wanted to see more just to "flesh out" some, IMO, not fully resolved details. I hated the death of Pike but overall, an excellent movie

Now do we have to wait another 4 freaking years for the next film!  

Supposedly Paramount wants the next one by 2016 in time for the 50th anniversary.  And I will say, for a good 2 hour long movie, Into Darkness moved at a very quick pace.

[Phaser]

Hi ho, folks!  Long time no see. 

Well, just like the last time I posted here, I just saw the most recent Star Trek film and wanted to geek out/share my thoughts about things!  (Similar to ShadowKnight1 and Saquist before things devolved into the inevitable Trek Canon discussion. )

Loved:
-KARL URBAN.  That man does a FANTASTIC job of playing Bones.  Every second of screen time with him is an absolute joy!!    I had the same thoughts about him in the first film.   
-The homages to STII.  Very well played, reversing the roles of Kirk and Spock.
-TRIBBLES. 'Nough said. 
-The subtle sound effects from TOS.  For example, opening the communicators had that slightly-changed-but-still-clearly-recognizable sound.  And the bridge "widdly-woo widdly-woo" sound was there!  Some button press sounds were also there.
-The models on Marcus' desk.  I loved, LOVED seeing the XCV Enterprise.  Only deep Trek fans (i.e., us ) would get that reference.  VERY nice touch.  Also, the Delta IV Heavy Lift Vehicle was on Marcus' desk.  Very cool.

Mixed Feelings:
-Chris Pine.  I still think he was a terrible casting choice.  He simply looks too young.  I enjoyed seeing him get his ass kicked, physically and emotionally.  It helped develop his character, just as ShadowKnight1 pointed out.  (I feel the same way about Zachary Quinto's age playing Spock.  However, he does an excellent job making up for it with his acting, even more so in the second film than the first, in my opinion.)
-The banter between Krik/Bones/Spock.  On the one hand, they nailed it, acting and script-wise.  Those small bits were a true joy.  On the other hand, it just doesn't feel like these characters have known each other long enough to have such banter.  Remember, we got that banter in the ST films, after they spent five years together during the series. ("Five year mission" etc. etc.)  This time around, I'm not sure how long they've been together.  Does anyone know if it's been established how much time has passed between the films?
-Seeing Nimoy again.  I don't have strong feelings about this scene one way or another, though I do have somewhat similar thoughts as Saquist about the need for the crew to stand on their own.

Hated:
-Nibiru.  This one I don't so much 'hate' as just find not well enough explained.  Why did Kirk steal that scroll?  Why was the Enterprise in the water, rather than in orbit?  Why the lack of a backup plan with the volcano? (Though the latter one can be explained by the debrief/yelling scene with Pike where it's implied that Starfleet didn't know about the volcano, and Kirk made a quick decision to save the planet.)
-"KHAAAAAAN!" I rolled my eyes at that one.  The scene leading up to it was a great homage (even including direct Scotty quotes! Anyone else notice the "You'll flood the whole compartment!" line?), but this felt like they jumped the shark, mostly because it felt out of character for Spock, in my opinion.  Yes, he lost control of his emotions.  But I think it would have been more powerful had he simply steeled himself for the fight with Khan.  I.e., took a deep breathe while trembling with tears streaming down his cheeks, grabbed a phaser, and then proceeded to attempt to kick ass--this last portion would have gone down just as it did in the film.
-Kirk being in command.  This one is just a through-back to one of my biggest problems with the first film, though: A cadet suddenly getting the most advanced ship in the fleet?  Please.  It doesn't really apply to this film.  I guess it just still really bugs me.
-Seeing the Akiraprise on Marcus' desk.  I immediately said to myself "Whelp, this whole reboot is now no longer canon!"  Goddammit. 

Also, just because: Totally called that Harrison was Khan, and called that is was the Vengeance and not the Enterprise that plunged into San Fran. The latter you could tell just by looking at the distance between the water-silhouetted nacelles.

As for the movie itself, I agree with many of ShadowKnight's nitpicks--the diving, the gravity falling stupidity, etc.  It made for a good movie, though!

Overall, I give it a thumbs up.

[Shadowknight1]

Hated:
-Nibiru.  This one I don't so much 'hate' as just find not well enough explained.  Why did Kirk steal that scroll?  Why was the Enterprise in the water, rather than in orbit?  Why the lack of a backup plan with the volcano? (Though the latter one can be explained by the debrief/yelling scene with Pike where it's implied that Starfleet didn't know about the volcano, and Kirk made a quick decision to save the planet.)

-Kirk being in command.  This one is just a through-back to one of my biggest problems with the first film, though: A cadet suddenly getting the most advanced ship in the fleet?  Please.  It doesn't really apply to this film.  I guess it just still really bugs me.

-Seeing the Akiraprise on Marcus' desk.  I immediately said to myself "Whelp, this whole reboot is now no longer canon!"  Goddammit. 

As for the movie itself, I agree with many of ShadowKnight's nitpicks--the diving, the gravity falling stupidity, etc.  It made for a good movie, though!

Snipped out a lot, going to address each of these points in turn.

1. Kirk stole the scroll to get the natives out of the temple that was right by the soon to erupt volcano, presumably just in case the pre-eruption totaled the temple.  Which it did.  As for the Enterprise being under water instead of in orbit, Chekov's line about the planet's magnetic field probably has a lot to do with it.  The magnetic field obviously interferes with transporter ability, and I think the general audience doesn't want to sit through five minutes of Trek-nobabble, even though we the fans would appreciate it.

2. I hate having to CONTINUE to defend this.  First off, CADET ISN'T A RANK.  Kirk was a Lieutenant when Pike field promoted him to first officer.  All "cadet" means is that the officer has yet to graduate Starfleet Academy.  Kirk, at most, jumped 2 ranks, though a field promotion to first officer would elevate his rank to either Lieutenant Commander or Commander.  Also, Kirk saved Earth and the Federation.  Good deeds get rewarded.  But this film was about Kirk having to come to grips with ALL the responsibilities of command.

3. Enterprise is canon.  Period.  Get over it.

4. I think you're mistaking me for someone else.  MY nitpicks were about Scotty getting canned(and not drinking nearly enough scotch as a result), the Enterprise taking a pounding without giving one back, no explanations for Khan's "nationality" and very little explanation for the regenerative capacity of his blood, and the new impulse deck the Enterprise gets at the end.  I'm no diving expert, nor do I really care if that was accurate or not, and I felt that Spock saying that the gravity was going offline was explanation enough.

I also think Chris Pine is a fine choice for a new Kirk.  He is young.  Just cause he has his original hair is no need to discount him.

That being said, I agree completely with your "Loved" list.

[Saquist]

Sorry they wouldn't be suffering from the bends because they weren't breathing any high pressure gasses.... people suffer bends when they surface to fast and don't allow the gasses in their blood system to dissolve properly... Think of a can of pop what happens when you shake it then open it? the gasses bubble up...

From what I understand scuba divers and natural divers experience DCS.  The Enterprise is a 100 meters down.  The air in their suit will change pressure with the weight of the water around them. Those were extremely flexible suits, they were exposed to the pressure.

And gentleman...assuming we ignore Sulu's establishment of the peril from reentry.  We can not summarily rule that technology is so advanced that reentry is now irrelevant.  Saying "Advanced technology" as an explanation for strange movie events isn't reasonable or logical. In this situation the Vengeance and Enterprise are falling from Luna orbit at some where close to 25,000 miles per hour. The hull will ablate.  IT's physics plain and simple.  Of course an object of this size would survive reentry. (even Skylab survived reentry) but not intact.  If a shuttle can't take a  thousand degrees of indirect heat from a volcano then we can't just assume technology has made us impervious to heat.  That reentry must have been several thousand degrees...less the hull is constructed out of Rhenium or Tungsten which would make them excessively heavy and expensive.

[FarShot]

And gentleman...assuming we ignore Sulu's establishment of the peril from reentry.  We can not summarily rule that technology is so advanced that reentry is now irrelevant.  Saying "Advanced technology" as an explanation for strange movie events isn't reasonable or logical. In this situation the Vengeance and Enterprise are falling from Luna orbit at some where close to 25,000 miles per hour. The hull will ablate.  IT's physics plain and simple.  Of course an object of this size would survive reentry. (even Skylab survived reentry) but not intact.  If a shuttle can't take a  thousand degrees of indirect heat from a volcano then we can't just assume technology has made us impervious to heat.  That reentry must have been several thousand degrees...less the hull is constructed out of Rhenium or Tungsten which would make them excessively heavy and expensive.

The hulls of starships aren't.  They're made of duranium.  Also the shuttle itself wasn't taking a whole lot of damage from the heat - the engines themselves were overheating.  Bit of a difference there as its individual components failing and not the duranium hull.

[Saquist]

The hulls of starships aren't.  They're made of duranium.  Also the shuttle itself wasn't taking a whole lot of damage from the heat - the engines themselves were overheating.  Bit of a difference there as its individual components failing and not the duranium hull.

We don't know what these hulls are made of in this Trek.
It makes more sense to you that this space craft which uses no thrusters or rockets is overheating due to extended use?
That's not the impression I got.  I remember an erumption and the heat spiking.  Seemed to imply the engine was taking heat damage...which also doesn't make sense.

Check out others that noticed the same breaks in logic.

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/18/the-science-of-star-trek-into-darkness/

But while they claim ash is a good reason, I don't think any planetary factor should bring down the shuttle short of a full on eruption which Spock should have survived.  I'd like to clear it up.  My impression could be wrong but I'm eager to defend the movies whip-lash science.

[Shadowknight1]

Sulu did make mention that the ash was fouling up the shuttle's engines.

And come on Saquist.  The NX-01 had a duranium hull, did it not?  Considering that the NX-01 definitely existed in this new timeline, it's reasonable to assume that starship hull construction is the same as in the Prime timeline.

[Darkthunder]

It seems to me, that people want to nitpick these movies to death. Find any minor fault possible, just to justify their "hatred" of the JJ Trek movies.

Personally, I view it as having ANY Trek movie, is better than no Trek movie at all. And nobody is forcing anyone to watch these movies. You don't like it? Fine. Don't watch it.

[Shadowknight1]

Well Dt, don't we nitpick Trek PERIOD?  Hell, how many of us nitpicked on Nemesis when it came out?  How many people out there nitpicked Picard's "out of character"-ness in First Contact?  The 50+ decks of the Enterprise-A?  The constantly changing size of the Enterprise-E?  The fact that no Sovereign-class starships made a single appearance during the Dominion War?  The Defiant's changing deck count and her constantly changing nose?

We're Trekkies.  Nitpicking...is our business.

[Darkthunder]

I understand nitpicking. Hell, i've even engaged in it quite a few times myself. But there comes a point, where people nitpick the most minute details, essentially grasping at straws, just to justify their own opinions. I gave up on the "hardcore Trekkies" when they started complaining about the nuEnterprise registry FONT not being the same as the TOS Enterprise font. Really now? The ship looks incredibly different from the TOS Enterprise, and people have the nerve to start whining about the font?

Rather than nitpicking stuff to death, why not try and come up with some in-canon reasons for why things behaved or played out as it did?

[Tuskin38]

 Anyone else find it weird that Marcus had a model of the Vengence, a top secret Section 31 ship, on his desk?

[Saquist]

Sulu did make mention that the ash was fouling up the shuttle's engines.

Either way I look forward to the break down of the films script.  It will tell us 2 things about J J Abrams.  1: just how bad of a story teller he is. 2: How much irreverence  he has for Trek.

And come on Saquist.  The NX-01 had a duranium hull, did it not?  Considering that the NX-01 definitely existed in this new timeline, it's reasonable to assume that starship hull construction is the same as in the Prime timeline.

It wouldn't surprise me either way.
But I'll tell you this.  I don't think of ENTERPRISE or "JJ Trek" as any part of "canon" Trek.  I treat them as islands onto themselves.  

Entertaining Duranium
The galaxy class Starship has survived temperatures of 21,632 Fahrenheit or 12,000 Celsius. You see Duranium is an element  and clearly this element doesn't exist in our solar system.  Humans hadn't ventured far enough outside their solar system to explain this.  How far would we have to go?  Well, Duranium couldn't be made in just any star.  No star could create it in it's core so that means it's a rare element.  Rare Elements are created in Super Novas as the higher temperatures react to the heavier core elements of the star.  Since our solar system has no Duranium then no normal Supernova could have created the element, thus it's not just rare, it's ultra rare.  We're probably talking about an element created from the Hyper Novas where the most powerful blast aside from the big bang could forge far more durable substances (somehow).  The nearest planetary Nebula is 400 light years away and it's the wrong type of nebula.  The Supernova remant Geminga is 550 ly.  Vela is 800.  These systems are the best chance to find ultra rare heavy elements and they are too far away even for vulcans at that time.

Trek doesn't really keep track of this stuff.  Duranium is just another euphemism for "Advance Technology"
Any similarities JJ Trek has to the original verse is completely circumstantial.  Fans seem determined to draw lines of reason from one to another but everything JJ has done has told us he really doesn't care, not even a little bit.  So I say treat his movies as "His Movies" and nothing else and we can avoid the canon debate as a result.
--------------------------------------------

And why would anyone create a spaceship who's engines internals are exposed to the outside elements?
These aren't air breathing machines...neither do they breath space or a vaccum.


@Shadowknight1
Yes, nitpicking is our business.  It would be interesting to see the movie breakdown just for that reason to see if JJ Abrams has zipped up his pants after all the heavy criticism he got from the last movie on science and canon.

[Shadowknight1]

Either way I look forward to the break down of the films script.  It will tell us 2 things about J J Abrams.  1: just how bad of a story teller he is. 2: How much irreverence  he has for Trek.

It wouldn't surprise me either way.
But I'll tell you this.  I don't think of ENTERPRISE or "JJ Trek" as any part of "canon" Trek.  I treat them as islands onto themselves. 

It's not opinion based.  Star Trek Enterprise IS canon.  It takes place before the original series.  Period.  Canon isn't something you can say "maybe" on.  If it happened on screen, it happened.

And for one thing, I see a LOT of Trek in these movies.  Into Darkness was a post-9/11 allegory for crying out loud.  And I wish people would stop laying everything on Abrams.  He didn't write the damn movie.  Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman did, and they're huge Trek fans, just like us.  I see a LOT of reverence for what came before, but I also see a willingness to put it aside and not be shackled by it like Berman was.

[Saquist]

It's not opinion based.  Star Trek Enterprise IS canon.  It takes place before the original series.  Period.  Canon isn't something you can say "maybe" on.  If it happened on screen, it happened.

And for one thing, I see a LOT of Trek in these movies.  Into Darkness was a post-9/11 allegory for crying out loud.  And I wish people would stop laying everything on Abrams.  He didn't write the damn movie.  Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman did, and they're huge Trek fans, just like us.  I see a LOT of reverence for what came before, but I also see a willingness to put it aside and not be shackled by it like Berman was.

Star Trek Canon is certainly opinion based.  Gene Roddenberry certainly changed his mind back on forth on what was canon or not.  I think the official position of "canon" on Trek is currently "A fluid state" according to the wiki and I've certainly have seen enough discussion with the higher ups to justify that position.  So...it is based on ones opinion so lets leave that in the circular file.

Secondly Bad Robot is his Studio Machine.  He takes responsibility for everything that happens because it's his name on the movie.  More over he carries the same writers around with him from Alias, Mission Impossible III, Super 8 and Star Trek.  Those writers take their direction from him.  That being said it's confusing what your position is.  You say it's canon but you recognize not needing to be shackled to Berman or Roddenbery Trek.
You've given me two different position on canon.  So which is it?  

Doesn't matter.  Canon is in the eye of the beholder....

[FarShot]

...if you let fake science and technology from a multi-decade history of already convoluted history/canon ruin a couple movies for you, you are missing the entire point of Star Trek.  "Wagon Train in space."  The important part is the "Wagon Train" not the "in space".  Star Trek's treknobabble/backstory is and always has been a vehicle to suit story telling needs.  If a bit of that vehicle is fudged over for the story's purposes, so be it.  The Motion Picture did it so with making the Enterprise the only vessel to intercept V'ger.  TWOK did it by having a slow and extremely inefficient torpedo loader.  SFS did it by making a large, ungainly starbase.  TVH had them go to the '80s to acquire some whales when a much earlier time would have been much better, and lets not forget alien space magic that throws Earth in peril.  I don't even need to talk about TFF.  VI... did anyone wonder why the Enterprise and Excelsior are the only ones at Khitomer?  You only have the leaders of the two most important space governments in a perfectly destructible building.  Generations, yet another "only one available" story.  And why didn't Soren just fly a ship in?  Or if he needs to be master of his own world, why not just get a holodeck?  First Contact had its own batch of character sabotage and overwriting TOS canon.  Insurrection and Nemesis don't need me to argue for them.

For every loose bolt in the JJVerse, there's a dozen more in the prime timeline.

[Saquist]

...if you let fake science and technology from a multi-decade history of already convoluted history/canon ruin a couple movies for you, you are missing the entire point of Star Trek.  "Wagon Train in space."  The important part is the "Wagon Train" not the "in space".  Star Trek's treknobabble/backstory is and always has been a vehicle to suit story telling needs.  If a bit of that vehicle is fudged over for the story's purposes, so be it.  The Motion Picture did it so with making the Enterprise the only vessel to intercept V'ger.  TWOK did it by having a slow and extremely inefficient torpedo loader.  SFS did it by making a large, ungainly starbase.  TVH had them go to the '80s to acquire some whales when a much earlier time would have been much better, and lets not forget alien space magic that throws Earth in peril.  I don't even need to talk about TFF.  VI... did anyone wonder why the Enterprise and Excelsior are the only ones at Khitomer?  You only have the leaders of the two most important space governments in a perfectly destructible building.  Generations, yet another "only one available" story.  And why didn't Soren just fly a ship in?  Or if he needs to be master of his own world, why not just get a holodeck?  First Contact had its own batch of character sabotage and overwriting TOS canon.  Insurrection and Nemesis don't need me to argue for them.

For every loose bolt in the JJVerse, there's a dozen more in the prime timeline.

I don't think I've missed the point Farshot, it's infact the same point. 

[ShaunKL]

Was anyone else expecting the Enterprise to separate her saucer?  I saw the seatbelts pop up and I was like, Oh man, they're gonna do it!.  Also did anyone notice any changes to the ship at the end besides the impulse engines?  It seemed like the saucer felt just a little different.  It was so quick that I couldn't really tell.  I am going to get to see it again soon though.

[Nebula]

Enterprise is canon but it is twisted canon... it was changed as soon as the Enterprise E left the Star System... ship design/Name were changed... who knows what the Ent was supposed to look like if there were no descriptions of the Ent E around... Also what about the surviving Borg or the Temporal Cold War? I think the Ent we see could be more connected to JJ trek than the Ent was supposed to be for our main universe. xD

I'll say again I loved everything about this movie... maybe one or two scenes grated on me but they can be over looked. The story may seem simple and silly on the surface but OMG there was so much more their under the surface... you just have to keep an open mind and look for it.

oh and just a hint don't try to find scientific fact in everything you see in the movies or series... you know they aren't going to be perfect. Heck whole star systems exist in Star Trek that don't exist in Real Life.

[Shadowknight1]

I agree with everything you said Farshot.  And my point Saquist is that expecting them to not play fast and loose with canon is dumb.  In fact, it's a miracle there's as many nods to canon as there are.  And I think you are missing Farshot's point, but oh well.

Was anyone else expecting the Enterprise to separate her saucer?  I saw the seatbelts pop up and I was like, Oh man, they're gonna do it!.  Also did anyone notice any changes to the ship at the end besides the impulse engines?  It seemed like the saucer felt just a little different.  It was so quick that I couldn't really tell.  I am going to get to see it again soon though.

Nah, wouldn't have made much sense to separate the saucer in that instance.  Obviously the warp core power issue was pretty bad and considering the damage the Vengeance wreaked upon the Enterprise, I'd assume her fusion reactors were probably toast as well.  This would've left the saucer in the same position, an unpowered dive.  The big difference is, with the warp core, there was still a chance to regain main power and save the ship.

As for changes to the ship after the time-skip at the end and the obvious repair/refit, I noticed the impulse drive had been completely rebuilt and the intercooler fins on the aft part of the warp nacelles now split into four segments when opening instead of three.  I think this is supposed to imply that the Enterprise got a complete propulsion upgrade after she was so easily outstripped by the Vengeance.  Better engines to go where no one has gone before.

[Tuskin38]

Honestly, I think i like Into Darkness more then 09